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[Aineo]

One discussion I have avoided on the net is the Sola Scriptura VS Catholic Tradition. It seems like every Christian message board I visit has an ongoing vitriolic debate going on about the authority of Scripture over tradition. By the way, I would side with the Sola Scriptura side of any debate. Our only authentic source for doctrine is the inerrant word of God.

However, Christians ignore the authority of Scripture when it suits them. It seems that prejudice takes first place with some topics, especially hot political topics, like homosexuality. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion I am pro-gay, I believe homosexuality is sin as clearly stated in the following Scriptures:

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. NAS

Lev 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. NAS

Rom 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. NAS

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. NAS

1 Tim 1:8-11 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted. NAS

I have purposefully left Genesis 19 and Jude 7 off my list, as I do not see either as a viable proof text (A proof text is a Scriptural reference that shows something to be sin within the context of the Scripture reference.) for the sin of homosexuality, based on Sola Scriptura – Scripture only. Why? Read on!

Gen 13:13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the LORD. NAS

Gen 18:20-21 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know." NAS

We are told the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners, and their sin is exceedingly grave, however, the sin is not specified – yet.

Gen 19:4-5 the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them." NAS

Gen 19:4-5 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them." NAS

If we stop here, it is logical that rape, homosexual rape is on the mind of every male, young and old, in the city of Sodom. But, this is not homosexuality. Rape is a crime of violence, not a sexual crime. Rape is a violent act of dominance, not lust. The sin described here is not sexual in nature; it is a perverted form of dominance and control. If this was the last we read of Sodom in Scripture I would be inclined to include it as a text showing male/male sex as a sin, but the Scriptures have more to say about Sodom.

Deut 29:22-28 Now the generation to come, your sons who rise up after you and the foreigner who comes from a distant land, when they see the plagues of the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it, will say, 'All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.' "And all the nations shall say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?' "Then men shall say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. 'And they went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them. 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book; and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as it is this day. NAS

Nothing about sexual sins here, at least not that I can see.

Isaiah and Jeremiah compare the false prophets and inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the Babylonians to Sodom and Gomorrah, calling them the rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah, invoking the same destructions on rebellious societies (Is 1:9-10, Is 3:9, 13:19, Jer 23:14, 49:18, 50:40).

God says of Israel:

Lam 4:6 For the iniquity of the daughter of my people Is greater than the sin of Sodom, Which was overthrown as in a moment, And no hands were turned toward her. NAS

I could continue to list Scripture after Scripture where the rebellious hearts of the Israelites is called worse than the sin of Sodom. And then we come to

Ezek 16:44-51 "Behold, everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb concerning you, saying, 'Like mother, like daughter.' "You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and children. You are also the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. "Now your older sister is Samaria, who lives north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lives south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. "Yet you have not merely walked in their ways or done according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you acted more corruptly in all your conduct than they. "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "Sodom, your sister, and her daughters, have not done as you and your daughters have done. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. "Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed. NAS

One of the arguments of gay theology is that Christ did not specifically mention it as a sin. And that is true; Christ does not address homosexuality in any form. However, He does mention Sodom.

Matt 11:23-24 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. "Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you." NAS

Our Lord plainly states that the gospel would have saved Sodom and Gomorrah. He uses them as an example of the power of His message, His love, and His miraculous ministry. So, why concentrate on the sin we call sodomy, why not concentrate on the salvation available through Christ and the power of His Spirit? When are Christians going to be obedient to our calling to preach the gospel and salvation through faith in Christ, and let God be God and the judge of the unrighteous?

And you might want to think about this one:

Luke 17:24-30 For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it shall be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. NAS

Do you see a correlation between Ez 16:49 and American Society today? I do! 3 churches in the city of Houston, have spent in excess of $100 million dollars for facilities and furnishings to glorify themselves, instead of feeding the poor, they live in luxury and ease, while their fellow man live in poverty and starve.

I sometimes wonder why 2 Peter 2:6-11 is not among the list of homosexual proof texts. Peter calls them unprincipled men, not homosexuals, is that why? I am growing to be fond of this Scripture. Lot is referred to as righteous, even though he choose to live in Sodom, he knew the wickedness of the city, and choose to live in the luxury and decadence. He committed incest with his two daughters, and yet, the Lord saved him and calls him righteous, and removed him from Sodom's influence. I see that as an allegory of those He is calling out of gay life and all other life dominating sins. Our Lord calls us righteous and knows how to deliver us from that influence and the bondage of the sensual conduct of unprincipled men. Yes, the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and it is only by His power that we can live in peace, joy, and freedom.

2 Peter 2:6-11 He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. NAS

So, what about Jude 7?

Jude 7-9 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Yet in the same manner these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. NAS

Taken in context, I see Jude 7-9 as a warning to those referred to in Jude 4, and another example of the judgment of those who would live in disobedience to God's perfect will, no matter what their sin.

So what was the sin of Sodom? They broke the laws of hospitality, and in their arrogance lived in decadence and did not help the poor. Homosexual rape can be inferred, but was not the reason – Sola Scriptura.

This discussion would not be complete without looking at the word “sodomite”. Biblically, sodomite and sodomy have NEVER referred to homosexuality. “Qadesh” the original Hebrew word appears 6 times in Scripture, and is ALWAYS used to indicate a temple prostitute or one consecrated for religious sexual purposes. (see below)

In popular (although archaic) English the terms are usually applied to homosexuals and homosexuality. This is do to the inference that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality. Under the law, the terms apply to any sexual act other than the face-to-face missionary position, and include oral, anal, bestiality, etc. Where Sodomy laws are still in effect, a married couple can be prosecuted for sodomy, even when it is consensual.


SODOMITE
SOD'OMITE (Heb. qadesh, "consecrated, devoted"). The sodomites were not inhabitants of Sodom, or their descendants, but men consecrated to the unnatural vice of Sodom (cf. Gen 19:4-5; Rom 1:27) as a religious rite. This dreadful "consecration," or rather desecration, was spread in different forms over Phoenicia, Syria, Phrygia, Assyria, and Babylonia. Ashtaroth, the Greek Astarte, was its chief object. The term was especially applied to the priests of Cybele, called Galli, perhaps from the river Gallus in Bithynia, which was said to make those who drank it mad. In Deut 23:17 the toleration of a sodomite ( "cult prostitute," NASB; "shrine prostitute," NIV) was expressly forbidden, and the pay received by a sodomite was not to be put into the Temple treasury (v. 1. "The wages of a dog" is a figurative expression used to denote the gains of a qadesh (sodomite), who was called kinaidos by the Greeks, because of the doglike manner in which he debased himself (see Rev 22:15, where the unclean are called "dogs"). (From The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)
(sod'-om-it) (qadhesh, feminine qedheshah): Qadhesh denotes properly a male temple prostitute, one of the class attached to certain sanctuaries of heathen deities, and "consecrated" to the impure rites of their worship. Such gross and degrading practices in Yahweh's land could only be construed as a flagrant outrage; and any association of these with His pure worship was abhorrent (Deut 23:17 f): The presence of Sodomites is noted as a mark of degeneracy in Rehoboam's time (1 Kings 14:24). Asa endeavored to get rid of them (15:12), and Jehoshaphat routed them out (22:46). Subsequent corruptions opened the way for their return, and Josiah had to break down their houses which were actually "in the house of the Lord" (2 Kings 23:7). The feminine qedheshah is translated "prostitute" in Gen 38:21-22; Hos 4:14; in Deut 23:17 "prostitute" (the King James Version margin "sodomitess," the Revised Version margin transliterates). The English word is, of course, derived from Sodom, the inhabitants of which were in evil repute for unnatural vice. W. EWING (from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

All of the above is the result of my own study and does not reflect the beliefs or opinions of any ministry I am associated with.
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[Guest]

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Although much of an ongoing work has to do with intersexed people in just being available as a friend, there is still no direct link to the destruction of Sodom which was not a result of being homosexuals, more in the order of people who moved God out of their lives, living for themselves alone and ignoring the poor.

Scripture is plain regarding fornication and no way to redefine it without taking God's Word out of context, but where God's Word is silent then we are obligated to be likewise.

I would equate Sodom with the present day prison system, not many spend any length of time in prison without being raped or molested in some other way and that was the condition God was looking at just as it was in the day of Noah Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

We are not the ones who will separate the sheep from goats or judge according to a persons heart and deeds, realizing that every individual was born with their name in that book of life and only they by choice determine if it is erased or not in choosing who they will serve, God or their own flesh or just living to please one's self as Sodom did and paid the price.

Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mr 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Lu 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Lu 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Sodom just made bad choices the same as Nineveh that was later destroyed for the same reason, but God was merciful the first time when they repented.

[Chrysoprasus]

Aineo, of course I don't agree on the post, but just out of curiosity, if you believe this why do you think homosexuality is a sin? It seems like you're trying to say it's not. Does anything in the bible say it's a sin? If not, why did you change?
Chrys
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Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[Guest]

[Aineo]

[jjf1990]

Genesis 19:4-11

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men(Angels) which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them..

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters(virgins) which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men(Angels) do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn(visit), and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
********************

Here's what has been revealved to me without any Bible commentaries or books about the subject other then the Bible itself.

I seriously doubt the men of Sodom who was at door wanted to have sex with the 2 (Angels). They was wanting to kill them.
The actual ideal of the sex or rape is not from scripture at all but a misunderstanding of it.
The ideal of rape or sex comes from the wording "that we may know them" that is twisted one way or another to promote an agenda by whoever is using it at the time.

The word used for "that we may know them" is
Strong's Number: 3045
Transliterated: yada` Phonetic: yaw-dah'
Text: a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]: -acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-]awares, can[-not], certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-]norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.

and is concluded with Lot offering his 2 virgin daugthers instead.
Sex is only what was in Lot's mind at the time as to why the men of Sodom was at his door. We still follow this same logic but if we bother to read a little futher the men of Sodom says
This one fellow(Angel) came in to sojourn(visit), and he will needs be a judge:
The word used is |8199| and must he judge always?
Strong's Number: 8199
Transliterated: shaphat Phonetic: shaw-fat'
Text: a primitive root; to judge, i.e. pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication, to vindicate or punish; by extenssion, to govern; passively, to litigate (literally or figuratively): --+ avenge, X that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge(-ment), X needs, plead, reason, rule.

The the Men of Sodom response is "now will we deal worse with thee Lot, than with them."

Sounds like the 1 of 2 Angels was doing some serious preaching that the men of Sodom didn't like very much because they said "must he judge always"!

If the men of Sodom was seeking to rape the 2 new men(Angels) they would have done raped the 2 virgin daugthers a LONG time before this point in time.
It was Lot who thought the men(Sodom) who was at the door was for sex.
But in reality they was there to kill the men(Angels) for preaching to them!
Which is something Lot never did.

9.
|0559| And they said,
|5066| Stand
|1973| back!
|0559| And they said,
|0259| This one
|0935| came in
|4815| to visit
|8199| and must he judge
|8199| always?
|6258| Now
|7489| we will do {more} harm
|0000| to you(LOT)
|1992| than to them.
|6484| And they pressed
|0376| on the man,
|3876| upon Lot
|3961| greatly,
|3061| and they drew near
|7665| to break down
|1817| the door.


You can accept it or deny it. That is your choice!
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And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. KJV John 1:1-5


The Truth of who Jesus Christ is can set you free!
Call upon his name!
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[Guest]

[quote="jjf1990"]Genesis 19:4-11

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men(Angels) which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them..

NASB:

Ge 19:5 and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

NIV:
Ge 19:5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Hebrew: yada`
1) to know
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to know
1a1a) to know, learn to know
1a1b) to perceive
1a1c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
1a1d) to discriminate, distinguish
1a1e) to know by experience
1a1f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess
1a1g) to consider
1a2) to know, be acquainted with
1a3) to know (a person carnally)
1a4) to know how, be skilful in
1a5) to have knowledge, be wise

Yes it is possible that Qal in this case is to be aquainted with,I doubt it but still possible. Nothing about any other past, present or future ever excuses my actions today or justifies them even if the entire world were composed of practicing homosexuals having sex with the same sex.

[jjf1990]

It is also possible that the 1 angel was preaching to them about a LOT of other stuff then gay sex, that is just what Lot assumed and the church for past several thousand years.

It doesn't say what the Angel was preaching to them that got them so riled up. But is it not the same case in this country when somebody preaches to the Self-Righteous!
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[align=center:cd3df77541]
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. KJV John 1:1-5


The Truth of who Jesus Christ is can set you free!
Call upon his name!
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[Aineo]

NamVet:
Ezek 16:49-50
49 "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.
NASYou can argue your prejudice until the cows come home or the Lord takes us from the world and it will not change the truth of the Bible. Roman Catholics have misused the Bible for millinnea and led many to destruction, and many fundie Christians are doing the same to unbelievers. I have never stated that the men of Sodom did not engage in homosexual activity, I stated homosexuality is not the Biblical reason for Sodom’s destruction and backed it up with Scripture. All you have done is maintain a traditional prejudice. IF you are really interested in reaching the lost in the gay community stop pushing prejudice and start teaching what the Bible really says.

Sodom is mentioned (39 times total) 19 times in the Old Testament after its destruction, it is mentioned 9 times in the New Testament. In all of these references Sodom is pictured as more righteous and of lesser guilt than the sins of the Jews and as an example of God’s wrath on an unrighteous society. Not once is sexual sin mentioned in these 28 references. To maintain your stance you plead prejudice based on only 1 reference Gen 19:5 is to avoid Biblical truth. Is this “rightly dividing the word of truth?”

You and I are of the same age; in my lifetime I have seen heterosexuals avoid Biblical morality and teach others to go to hell in a hand basket. Are you working in the ever-straight community as hard to clean up their act as you are with as much vehemence you use with the gay community? If not, isn’t this a bit hypocritical?
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[jjf1990]

You said

[Aineo]

[jjf1990]

[Aineo]

[TRUTHSETSUFREE!]

Ge:4:1: And Adam "KNEW" Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

KNEW= HAD SEX WITH/ HAD INTERCOURSE WITH

Ge:19:5: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may "KNOW" them.

KNOW= HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH

Ge:19:6: And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

Ge:19:7: And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so WICKEDLY.

If they were just going to talk to them, Lot wouldn't of said: "I pray you, brethren, do not so WICKEDLY."


THE MEN WANTED TO HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH G-D'S TWO ANGELS.


OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE TRUTH, BEFORE THE DOORS CLOSE.

TRIBULATION IS GETTING READY TO BEGIN MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

LOVE YOU!
Your Sister, LJ

G-D LOVES YOU!

[Aineo]