Once Saved always Saved Clarified by Jesus Himself!

webmaster

Matthew 13:3-9,18-23
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Have you ever planted a garden?
Some seeds never grow.
Some grows then withers away.
Some grow several inches then start to die.
Some dying plants catch ahold of good ground or water and sprout back to life.
Some dying plants are tended to by the gardener and sprout back to life.
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ezekiel · New Convert Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Posts: 16

Hello I am new to these boards. Hello all.....

Okay this is a huge big topic you just went into.

Tell me what is your belief in this? To whom do you think this applies too?

Guest · Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2002 04:50 pm Post subject:

So then once I accept Christ I can then live any way I want and still make it to heaven? This sounds too easy.

Ezekiel · New Convert Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Posts: 16

See there is more to it then once save always save.

True believers will not go off sinning for the fun of it. They won't do that.

We all know that if we love the Lord we don't just say because I love him and he loves me that means we can do anything we want.

If we truly love him, then we would want to make him please with us by living holy lives. I know we would fail but we need to keep on trying.

Now

To those who just take God Grace for granted and let say kill for the fun of it and pay no attention that what they are doing is wrong then they are in a big surprise when they meet God.

So Once save always save applies to those that are choosen by God. Read Ephesians and study it.

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But then there is another aspect of Hell. Anyone here a Thelogian? Anyway so do Hell applies to believers too??? Something to think upon..

webmaster · Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:07 am Post subject:

(19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

He hears the Gospel but never believes!

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(20-21) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

This person believes in part but has not received the Holy Spirit!
The person can't read his Bible because he doesn't understand it.
He also confesses I am saved but is not truly Born Again!
It says that because of the Word of God by and by he is offended.
When somebody tells this person what the Bible says they are offended because what they hear in Church doesn't match what the Bible says!
They usually end up making comments like this:

Guest · Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 03:05 pm Post subject:

Are you then sinless upon the entrance of the Holy Spirit? I am very much saved and very much not sinless.
BTW, I'm not in complete disagreement, I just don't think it is quite as simple as you make it out to be.

Ezekiel · New Convert Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Posts: 16

Webmaster could you pls write out why you believe once save always save?

I know the quotes. Just try and explain why you believe it is so, makes it much easier for the reader what your saying...

Thank you....

Here firstly you can get a book by David Pawson, very good preacher!

It is called once save always save. Very helpful!!! Helps you understand it better...

Here is one link you can go too to read up more on it.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/once_saved.html

Read it and see if you agree..enjoy!!!

God bless.....

BTW: Marty are you Reform? Clavanist? etc? There are others can't spell then out.

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Ezekiel · New Convert Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Posts: 16

BTW how to I edit my post? I can't find the option for doing so can anyone tell me? Thank you..

Here is one more link, this is much better. I think it will clear the issue.

http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/once.html

webmaster · Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 09:02 am Post subject:

sorry about that the edit was turned off.
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Ezekiel · New Convert Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Posts: 16

Thank you.

Thank you for turning it on.

E.C.Everett · Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2003 08:48 am Post subject: Post from a "Newbie"

Hello All,

I too would consider myself in the "once saved-always saved" camp, but probably not for the reasons of people who usually use the phrase.
Salvation is not a once for all event, but rather a process of being conformed to the image of Christ, Who alone is acceptable to God.
We were saved, "from the foundation of the world", "it is finished", we are being saved, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling", and we will be saved, "he that endures to the end shall be saved".

So, what does it mean to be saved?

I believe we are redeemed from sin and death by the Cross of Christ. His sacrificial atonement pays our debt, and He imparts to us the benefit of having "peace with God through our Lord, Jesus Christ". Mysteriously though, the only way to partake of His ransom, is to die ouselves. How is this accomplished? By faith, and by His Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism for the remission of sins."Know ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life".(Romans 6:3,4)
So we are redeemed, by His death, baptized into His death, and raised to "newness of life", by Him. "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord".

So the new life is a life, "dead . . . to sin". The life of "pick up your Cross and follow me daily". The life of being a "partaker of His sufferings".For what purpose? "The servant is not greater than his Master. . ." And if, "it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering.", it seems impossible that we will not also be brought to completion through suffering, as "silver refined".

So are we complete? Yes, and no I think. We were "chosen. . . in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:4,11)
"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"(Col.2:10) There is the yes part. Or rather, part of the yes part.

Why do we still sin then if we are complete? Because we are not yet complete. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1ST John 2:1) This seems to indicate that even the justified still sin...."And beside this, giving all diligence,add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity". (2nd Peter 1:5-7) Peter says to add to our faith, these virtues that exemplify the character of Christ. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is".(1st John 3:2) So, our being like Him, will not be complete until He appears. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Phil.1:6) So He is doing a work in us, He is not finished, and will not finish ". . .until the day of Jesus Christ".

So in this i believe that we were saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Because it is God who has called us and begun this good work, He will complete it and we have eternal security becuse of this fact. But, we aren't to be complacent and settle for escaping eternal judgement. We are to put on Christ. Being transformed into His image, by fellsowship with His sufferings, and partaking of His divine nature, we are to be made like Him.Therefore, we are being saved. We will be saved when he appears, and He is completed with the work He has begun in us.
Once saved always saved? Yes, because it is God who saves. But to me the phrase, "once saved always saved" should include the life of discipleship, cultivating the virtues of Christ. . ."make(ing) your calling and election sure".

I do not think "salvation", "sanctification", "theosis", "redemption" are separate ideas. They are irreducably linked to the one purpose of God, which is the manifestation of the sons of God, in Christ Jesus.
It is an event, a process, and eventually a finality.

By the way. . .I am new here, so I wanted to say hello to everyone. As you can see, I tend to be rather "long-winded", but only about things i am passionate about, and salvation is one of those "things".. . .

Everett
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Guest · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Becareful!

Guest · Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 04:24 pm Post subject:

Ok a good scripture to use here would be 1 corinthians 6:9-10
Look it up then see wot ya think

Guest · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 06:48 pm Post subject:

great post, Everett.

"I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved," to put it into a succinct little blurb.

Guest · Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 06:20 pm Post subject:

I enjoyed reading all of this.

thanks guys.

padwinlearner · New Convert Joined: 20 Apr 2003 Posts: 7

I believe you cannot be unsaved: John 10:27-30 (Jesus is speaking) "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

So, in essence, NO ONE can take you from Jesus hand once you are saved, that includes YOU. We are not greater than the Father, therefore, we cannot pull ourselves from His grasp. That is a very conforting knowledge, because our salvation is assured.

"It is by grace you are saved, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast." It would take works if we had to retain our salvation in any way. We were dead in our sins before we accepted Christ as our Savior - and what can a dead man do but lay there and rot - it is only through the grace of God that we are awakened from the dead through faith in Christ Jesus - not of our own works or deeds.

So, what does that have to do with the parable of the seeds? I believe the seeds are different stages in a Christian's walk. There are times when we blossom fully under Christ's daily watering and nourishing. There are times we try to 'go it alone' under our own power, and become the seeds that fall to the hard ground. The condition of the human heart is very fickle, and it is when we look away from Christ that we fall. But He is faithful always to put us back on track, to pull us closer to Him, to continue to form us in His image.

No, we cannot ever be unsaved - we can be a prodigal child, but in the end, Christ will bring us back. "Train a child in the ways of the Lord and in their old age they will not depart from it" - it doesn't say that every day and every second we will walk the walk Christ would have us walk - on the contrary , we will fall, we will sin, but Christ is always there to cover our sins with His precious blood.

webmaster · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 09:08 pm Post subject:

But is it not a problem to tell people that they are now saved forever just because they walk up to the alter and say a prayer? Then they are told 100% they are saved and don't let nobody tell you otherwise. But in reality they are not saved! I have seen people who has walked up to the alter and was told they couldn't do it again! That is where the once saved always saved concept creates a contradiction against what the bible says!
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preacherintraining · Guest

I'm new here and don't know how to do quotes, but I read earlier someone ask if all you had to do was ask Jesus to your heart and you would always be saved. This is by no means true. The plan of salvation outlined in the bible is this: 1. Hear the Gospel 2. Believe the Gospel 3. Obey the Gospel 4. Repent of your sins 5. Be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ. Many people forget all about the need to be baptized. Also, the seeds are not "stages" of a christian's growth. The seeds represent the word of God. Where it falls represents the different type of people. Some eat it up and grow spiritually and stay in that path and are saved. Others the word gets snatched up by sin and distractions in the world. Others eat it too fast and get head over heels without ever realizing they need to learn more and are corrupted by people who twist the word. Remember, Paul wrote about God's grace continually cleanses us but that is only if we are baptized and repent when we do sin and ask for his forgiveness. If we don't do this then we will be lost. He also adds that though we will continually be forgiven we should never willingly continue to sin.

christy jones · New Convert Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 6 Location: india

christy jones · New Convert Joined: 06 Sep 2003 Posts: 6 Location: india

Hercules · New Convert Joined: 28 Sep 2003 Posts: 7 Location: Georgia

Well if you are born again and convicted of your past sin's already then you should not want to live in iniquity any more.If you join a church and participate in the communion and still are living in sin and iniquity then you are deceiving yourself.Sin is one thing and iniquity is another define the difference.Yes we are all sinners and do sin each day, but don't just do it willingly.Willingly is iniquity.Each sin carries a conviction if you belong to the lord you will know you done wrong and will ask his forgiveness daily.Even a bad thought is sin so we are to pray and beg for forgiveness daily(die daily)at least one time a day to the lord in prayer.If you are doing this you should never fail.

Fear_nam_Beanntan · New Convert Joined: 19 Sep 2003 Posts: 18

But some do, which is why the Bible contains so many exhortations to "endure to the end."
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Rayosun · New Convert Joined: 13 Oct 2003 Posts: 4

I don't know if there's any life left in this thread, but I've collected all of the pertinent verses of both Jesus and Paul to show how sadly, "Fundamentalists" are devoted to Paul's teaching on this crucial matter, instead of Christ's. See
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{Luke 4:18}

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Omega · Guest

_mike_ · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 06:18 pm Post subject:

Don't forget in that verse omega, to add as a description that in Jesus's times it meant, be willing to die for Him.
In those days the cross equalled death.

Michael
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Omega · Guest

Thank you for mentioning it and clarifying it so that others may understand.

LindaBee2 · Preacher Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 1407 Location: Oregon

Let's face it. No one - save the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - is perfect. But I'm grateful for the fact that Jesus Christ suffered a slow, agonizing death so I (along with other sinners) will have the chance for eternal life in the Lord's Kingdom. As painful as His death was, it was beautfiul, in the sense that He died so that we may live.

danjss · New Convert Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 8

Hello I am new to the forum. This is a hot topic and unfortunately whenever it is discussed people get mad and forget that we are brethren not enemies. But I don't see that problem here. That is why I feel compelled to present this:

If you read the parable in Matthew 25 verse 30. Does this not show that an unfaithfull servant be thrown into hell? Think about this, you can't be a servant of Christ unless you have accepted him as you savior. Read the verse and tell me what you think. You might want to read the beginning of the chapter to get the context.

Matthew 25:30 "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." KJV
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And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

New_Testament · New Convert Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3 Location: Detroit

Hello, to all I'm new with much respect, I will give my thought on this topic I believe also OSAS, but, I will explain why.

As " the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual " 1st Corinthians 2:13.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but (en-) dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful "

" Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

It is not that they were "once" saved , then lost their salvation but the Christ NEVER knew them as his own! Matthew 13:20-21 & 7:22-23

Concerning the phrase, "once saved ALWAYS saved". How long is Eternal? An indefinite duration of Time. Christ promises the True Born Again Child of God, " Verily, verily, (It's True, it's true) I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath Everlasting life. " John 6:47.

" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them Eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" John 10:27-28.

" Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained Eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the Eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? " Hebrews 9:12-14.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (Greek word - Apostasia- APOSTASY ) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition " 2nd Thessalonians 2:3.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate " Titus 1:16

Keyword being PROFESS
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Sola Scriptura

Omega · Guest

Most of the above verses in which you had quoted describes a person who is NOT ROOTED in his belief.

A person who is rooted will not only continue to prosper and grow in spirit but will bring forth fruits of the spirit which will ENDURE to everlasting Life.

Some of the verses you had quoted, refers to those who have not root within themselves, and some of the other verses you had quoted such as,"My sheep hear my voice and I call them by name" refers to true and absolute conversion.

A True Child of God even though he may stray, WILL hear and obey the voice of God who is the Lead Shepard and will follow it.

This verse you had quoted says it all,"" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them Eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" John 10:27-28. "

But then you had quoted,"Concerning the phrase, "once saved ALWAYS saved". How long is Eternal? An indefinite duration of Time. Christ promises the True Born Again Child of God, " Verily, verily, (It's True, it's true) I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath Everlasting life. " John 6:47."

Just as Universalists believe that everlasting of forever is not literal because it translates to "aion"which is a long duration of time, but a problem arises here.

Examples:The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
1.The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
2.God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 3.1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
4.God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
5.God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
6.God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
7.God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
8.God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

by Don C. Hewey Copyright © 1998-1999,

So once A True Believer takes root within himself it will need to be nourished by the Word which will give growth from within, and as Jesus Himself had said," He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38

And with this verse,"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."Matthew 7:23,24

There are many who go to church believing that, that is what will get them into the Kingdom of God, going to church just to sing songs but take no serious thought of what is actually heard at church and therefore does not take root within themselves. Or go to church then afterwards go looking for sexual relations outside the boundaries of marriage.

The Word of God says,"Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, DECEIVING yourselves"

Furthermore it is written:Matthew 7:26- And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: But true believer builds His house upon a living foundation which is Christ or upon a sturdy rock.

SO OSAS? YES!

God Bless!

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

... OSAS doctrine is Man Made and not biblical. This doctrine only came about in the 1600.s and does not apply the apostolic teachings of CHrist. Where Paul speaks of Faith , Jesus teaches obedience to our Faith.

THey dont apply Most of the New Testament of CHrist to their doctrine or teachings. They seem to omit the idea that Gods Laws which are his commandments, have nothing to do with ones salvation. These are the good fruits we produce out of love for us FAITHFUL CHristians to follow.

Gods commandments are not grevious.

As an Orthodox christian I believe Faith saves us, but we must define what real faith means in Christ.

Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved

Jesus Christ will judge in the last day (John 12:4

. He who endures to the end. That hasn't happened yet, so technically we are not saved from that yet. Salvation is clearly conditional. We must ENDURE to the end, and then we will be saved. Why would Jesus spent so much of his ministry on teaching faith and commandment keeping.

This is why Free will is important for us all. Christ would never leave us, however we could walk away from him and his words.

Doers of the word and hearers of the word are two different kinds of christians.

Zeke
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Lutheran

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

I just wanted to add,

Its very hard to comprehend, billions of Orthodox Christians along with Pastors and Priest worldwide somehow have been duped or misinterpreted Gods Word.

And the Assured Salvation Sect or doctrine that started just 400 years ago, somehow have been choosen by God, to reveal his truths.

We are all Gods people and all choosen to be saved. God gave us his rules its up to us to follow them with Faith and obdience to his word.
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Lutheran

Omega · Guest

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

CORRECT. OMEGA,

God will never stop loving us..!!!!

however if we dont refrain from sin and we continure to sin and we dont go to church, or do charity , which are Gods commandments, how can one claime he loves and has faith in GOd.

He who loves God follows his will. HIS WHOLE WILL.

ZEKE
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Lutheran

Aineo · Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 08:37 pm Post subject:

Although you can take Matthew 24:13 to apply to the tribulation period the same cannot be said for:

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

These verses are for the believers who have faith and follow CHrist.

Matthew5
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24-26.)

This passage clearly shows that the "righteous" man (the just man, the man in the state of grace) can "fall away" from that righteousness and "die" in his "sin." In Scriptural language, to "die in one's sins" is to be a reprobate, damned.

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (I Cor. 9:27). Are we any better than the Apostle?

Zeke
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Lutheran

Omega · Guest

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

If you truly love the Lord you follow all of his commandments.

His commandments are not grevious, you cant just follow one commandment , and if you are truly loving your god and have real faiith you follow all of his commandments.

You go to church , you take communiuon and you repent for your sins.

As Paul himself said. he himself could be cast away.

Read and study Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and revelations and see all the If's and warnings for the believers who claim they Love and have faith in him.

Christ came to save all his believers, he did not judge us yet on our walk with him. He will come to judge the living and the dead.

Zeke
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Lutheran

Omega · Guest

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This passage does not teach that one can lose his salvation through disbelief or apostasy. These verses refer to a hypothetical situation wherby the author stresses what would happen to a saved person if he could fall away. The author does not believe one can lose his salvation, or that his readers had{verse 9}; but he so speaks to demonstrate the folly some might have in imagining that they can turn back to Judaism without suffering loss.

Though the author is not writing about his readers{verse 4 those}, he still is writing for their sakes{verse 9,you }. If they shall fall away is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage. This is a legitimate and even common grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages{2:3; 10:26}and even 6:8.

The first four participles refer to actual blessings whereas number five describes potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four.

God Bless!

Omega · Guest

The church of Corinth tool communion in an unworthy manner not worthy even enough for anyone.

Now when one takes communion one should ask themselves, "Do i really love the Lord?"

Anyone who falls asleep when taking communion obviously, i need not explain it, it is clear as the waters in heaven.

Zeke please quote the bible passages in which you state such notions and then i will attempt to respond in an appropriate manner.

God Bless!

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

Omega said:Man can come with their own doctrine of salvation lost, but final, if one truly loves the Lord, they will never lose their salvation.

Loving and following the Lords will are two different entities, a child loves his father and mother but they dont always follow the rules

Yes Man does come with their own doctrines , but only a small sect, most christians adhere to the core teachings of CHrist which are Faith and commandmet keeping, which means if you dont love God and are obedient to his warnings one can lose their salvation.

Faith produces GOds fruits out of LOve which you seem to agree with , however in the same breath you claim these fruits produced have nothing to do with ones salvation. It lacks logic.
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Lutheran

Omega · Guest

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

[b]1Cor.10
[16] The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

[21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Cor.11
[25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

[26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
[27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
[28] But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup

Do you agree with the verses above. Now may I ask if you partake in communion with the Lord.?[/b]

Zeke
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Lutheran

Omega · Guest

Yes i do partake in communion, now what question so you have for me?
And do i agree? if i don't then i don't agree with the word of God which is ridiculous.

Just as many of you had bypassed the verses i had quoted and went on with yours!
Here and waiting!

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

[b]Phil.2
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Pet.1
[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
2Pet.3
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Jude.1
[3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.[/b]
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Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

Omega said:Yes i do partake in communion, now what question so you have for me?

And do i agree? if i don't then i don't agree with the word of God which is ridiculous.

Well is it the word of God that you partake in communion.?

Which you seem to agree with, however you claim in your next statement that if you stop taking communion you are still loving God.

Its absurd what you are trying to preach as doctrine, it lacks common sense.
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Omega · Guest

Your not stressing your point in any of these verses or your interpretation

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

This is why this doctrine is considered a false doctrine.

Not only is it unbiblical it lacks common sense.

Before you interpret the gospel of our Lord, you
need to make statements that dont contradict each sentence you propose.

You claim you take communion , however if you stop taking communion, you are still following God. How does that make sense.

If you today decided not to partake in commmuion anymore, can you claim you still love God and are saved.

Who would buy this logic.?

Zeke
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Lutheran

Omega · Guest

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

[b]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I did not give you my interpretation of this verse, I just gave you the verse right out of the KJV of the Bible.

Now I will give you most christians interpretation.

Its God call for his people to be Holy. there are two kinds of men on the earth: those who fear what is happening on earth and those who working out there salvaiton in the fear of God:

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

2 Corinthians 7:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

How about the communion question, if you stop today taking communion are you still loving God and saved.?[/b]
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Aineo · Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject:

Communion is not a commandment. The Lord said "When you do this", He did not say "do this".

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

One must be living in separation from the world of sin. The Apostle Paul said, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and the table of devils (I Corinthians 10:21).

Also one must be worthy to take Holy Communion. Paul further instructs, "Wherefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of Christ", (I Corinthians 11:29). And "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (I Corinthians 11:29).

God's Word tells us that we must take Communion (John 6:53-54).

What does the Lord's Supper symbolize?

The Lord's Supper symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Luke 22:19).

3.) If you fail to take the Lord's Supper, will you inherit eternal life?

John 6:53-54 53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

How long are we to take Communion?

We are take Communion until the Lord Jesus Christ comes again (1 Corinthians 11:26).26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come

Matthew5:
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

A christian should not preach nor teach that it is OK NOT to partake in communion

I thought this was a christian forum, I see by the comments being posted , that it is not.

Zeke
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Lutheran

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

Paul also said that it's possible to "depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1).

You can't depart from something unless you were once there.

Again, the same idea is expressed in Romans 11:22 "if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

2 Peter 2:20-21:

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."

Zeke
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Lutheran

Alpha · Moderators Joined: 31 Dec 2002 Posts: 2461

In God's perspective it's once saved always saved, because He already knows whose names are written in the Book of life. But in man's perspective, we do not know who is saved.

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

I agree Alpha with half of your statement..

The books of Matthew, Mark , Luke , John and revelations , clearly tells us one can be blotted out of the Book of Life, because of continual sin and not following Gods commandments. Jesus spent his whole ministry teaching us christians his whole word to follow. He left us many if's and warnings to his followers.
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Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

[b][b][b]

One must be living in separation from the world of sin.

The Apostle Paul said, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and the table of devils (I Corinthians 10:21).

Also one must be worthy to take Holy Communion. Paul further instructs, "Wherefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of Christ", (I Corinthians 11:29). And "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (I Corinthians 11:29).

God's Word tells us that we must take Communion (John 6:53-54).

What does the Lord's Supper symbolize?

The Lord's Supper symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Luke 22:19).

3.) If you fail to take the Lord's Supper, will you inherit eternal life?

John 6:53-54 53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

How long are we to take Communion?

We are to take Communion until the Lord Jesus Christ comes again (1 Corinthians 11:26).26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come

Matthew5:
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You agree on commandment keeping, yet teach or profess they have nothing to do with a chirstians salvation. We must apply all of the New Testament if we are really love Jesus and are truly following him.

With real faith and love for Christ we follow his whole will.[/b][/b][/b]
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Alpha · Moderators Joined: 31 Dec 2002 Posts: 2461

Zeke, how would you charcterize an unsaved person besides the fact that person is not a Christian? In other words, let's say a person says he is Christian. How is that person going to be unsaved? (When answering that question, take into account that eventhough we are Christians, we are still sinners).

Aineo · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 09:30 am Post subject:

Aineo · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 09:46 am Post subject:

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

I am sorry, I cannot continue with whats being professed on here as Christianity. and the New Testament teachings.

It is not what most christians believe or profess.

OSAS is not Biblical .. I feel like I am having a conversation with Satan, Instead of preaching to others to follow all of GOds will or word, you are finding loop-holes to rid follwing all of the NT of CHrist.

You are teaching against Christ and his word. You claim you have faith and love christ yet claim commandment keeping and most of the New Testament of our Lord has nothing to do with ones faith and or salvation.

Its absurd.!

Your statements and comments speak for themselves.

I hope you gain understandiing with Gods true word that has been taught over the last 2000 years. Apostolic teachings taught by Our Lord.
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Lutheran

Aineo · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject:

God is oppossed to the proud and gives grace to the humble.

webmaster · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 07:53 pm Post subject:

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

I dont believe it is "small theology" to teach others that Gods commandments and partaking in the Lords Supper (communion). are part of a christians faith and Love for Christ.

I am not here to de-bunk OSAS since most christians do not consider it theology or Gods word. Their comments speak for them-selves.

OSAS doctrinne simply does not profess or teach most of the NT of christ. OSAS claims they have Faith in God but that is about all they have, since you can see from most posters they dont feel I should be preaching in regard to commandment keeping, church going, or communion.

What I am complaining about is to follow Gods commandments and partake in Holy Communion.

And your response to me is 'Woe" unto you.

1John3:
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth

[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

"Here is the patience of the SAINTS,
who KEEP GOD'S COMMANDMENTS
AND HAVE THE FAITH OF JESUS". Rev. 14;12

Zeke
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Lutheran

webmaster · Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 08:10 am Post subject:

So does religion save Zeke?

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

[b[b]]
[b][b]"Here is the patience of the SAINTS,
who KEEP GOD'S COMMANDMENTS
AND HAVE THE FAITH OF JESUS". Rev. 14;12

"God commandments are not grevious."

With God it is possible, with Man it is Not.

For many "make void the commandments of God while teaching the commandments of men. (See Matt. 15:9)

There are those who claim we are sanctified by our works, but no, we are sanctified by God's Spirit which leads us to obedience. Sanctification is BY FAITH, a faith that works by love unto obedience.

for straight is the gate and narrow the path that leads to salvation and few find it. (Matt. 7:7)

The principle involved in obedience or disobedience is not whether we think something is Ok or not, it is the majesty of the Lawgiver, it is God's who gave those commandments, do we TRUST AND HAVE FAITH in HIM, enough to surrender our own inclinations and desires to HIS WILL[/b][/b]? [/b]

Zeke[/b]
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Lutheran

Aineo · Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 02:08 pm Post subject:

RomeSweetHome · Guest

So what about those other Scriptures which indicate that works do have a part to play in man's salvation. In order to better understand how this relationship exists, let's look a James, chapter 2:

"But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe; and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:18-24)

So, what relationship does works have to salvation and faith? How can we be justified by works? Let's examine the few verses which precede the above passage. "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to him, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give him the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (James 2:14-17) Works -- good deeds which help our fellow Christians, spreading the gospel, etc. -- is what proves that our faith is alive and real. If we were to say, "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God," we would call that faith which can lead to salvation. But the proof of that faith, is not that we say we believe, but that we do those things which further the kingdom. Works are the result of saving faith. We are justified by our works, in that our works prove our faith to be real, alive saving faith; not just intellectual assent that God and His Son exist.

It is sort of like the old saying, "Put your money where your mouth is." It is one thing to say that we believe something, and another to conduct ourselves in such a manner as to demonstrate our belief.

Works and faith both together are essential to Christian life.

Peace

Aineo · Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 09:25 pm Post subject:

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

Love and Faith produce Good fruits which are works. Good fruits are Gods commandments and beatitudes.

If you love and have faith in CHrist you are producing Gods good fruits.

If you love and have faith and Do NOT produce Gods good fruits, then you are not really showing faith or love for Christ.

Faith saves us along with our actions responding to our love and faith in Christ.

So how can producing fruit have nothing to do with ones salvation with Christ.???????

Are you claiming if you Love and have faith in christ and DO NOT produce these good fruits or works which are what good fruits are, then are you still saved.????

So If I love Christ and do Not produce any fruit which you claim have nothing to do with ones salvation .... is a person still saved ?????

ZEKE
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Lutheran

Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

"For we have become 'partakers' of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end!"

The 'Works' of the flesh are evident:

(Gal5:19-21) adultery, fornication, uncleanness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, revelries and the like....of which I TOLD you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those WHO PRACTICE such things WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God."

But the Fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have Crucified the flesh with it passions and desires. (Gal5:22-24)

If you DO NOT 'Crucify' the flesh by the Power of the Spirit, you will be overcome by sin and Fall from Grace. That's what Jesus meant when He said 'Abide in Me, bare fruit or be cut off!' (John15:1-6)

What is 'The Law of Faith" Rom3:27 What does the Bible mean by saying, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? NO, but by the LAW OF FAITH!" (Now most of these things are exceedingly simple, but hidden to the natural man because he does not have a love of the truth. 1Cor2:14, 2Thess2:10)

Read John3:20-21 "For everyone doing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. But he who does the Truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."http://www.antiosas.org/index.html
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Aineo · Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 09:08 am Post subject:

A saved life is a fruitful life, which the Bible makes extremely clear. However the fruits follow salvation they do not precede salvation. You cannot display the fruit of the Spirit until you have the Spirit, you cannot produce works that demonstrate your salvation until you are saved. James and Paul are teaching the same doctrine. Paul is teaching that works of the Law do not save and James is teaching that a person who claims to be saved and does not demonstrate works is self deceived.

Those who endure to the end will be fruitful till the end. Those who produce fruit for a season and then become "suckers" that sap the strength of the vine are pruned and burned.
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Zeke · Deacon Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 80

Aineo said:A saved life is a fruitful life, which the Bible makes extremely clear. However the fruits follow salvation they do not precede salvation.

Agreed. !!!

Faith produces love, then continuing love for Christ produces fruits. He is
Saved

However,.....

Aineo then said:

Those who endure to the end will be fruitful till the end. Those who produce fruit for a season and then become "suckers" that sap the strength of the vine are pruned and burned.

So they had faith and believed for a while but stop producing fruits.or lets clariy this they stopped loving Christ.

Unsaved. At this point they have lost their salvaton.

Zeke
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Lutheran

Aineo · Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:49 am Post subject:

StreetDeacon · Assitant Deacon Joined: 18 Jan 2004 Posts: 51

I totally didn't see this thread, so I'll post the same question here. I apologize if this was already covered, I didn't have time to read all 4 pages. Here's my question from a different thread.....

Zeke started a thread about whether or not a person could lose their salvation. I think it got deleted. I wish it didn't, because it's a question that I've been struggling with for a while now.

Here's an example that would make me think a person could lose their salvation....

A person gets saved when they are 16. When they are 19, they become agnostic or atheist saying that they only believed in Christianity because they were brainwashed, and that it's all a bunch of bull.

Now this next example is something that I can see happening to myself. I wanna say this wouldn't lead to hell, but I don't know....

A Christian man crosses a street. As he does so, he sees a beautiful woman sitting on a bench. He is attracted to her body. Then all of a sudden, he is hit by a bus, killing him instantly. So he didn't have a chance to ask for forgiveness. Where will he end up? Would it be any different if he had complete lust for the woman, wanting to have sex with her?

I also have friends of mine that I worry about. They say they believe in God, and that Jesus is the son of God, and all that stuff. They say they are Christians, yet, it pretty much ends there. They don't give a tithe, they don't bother with church, they're greedy, they cheat on their wives, and much more. In your opinions, what's to come of people like that? They believe, yet they don't want to put forth the effort to live a better life.
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In memory of my brother, may he rest in peace...

July 22, 1970 - January 4, 2004

webmaster · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 04:30 pm Post subject:

John 3

1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You Must be Born Again just as Jesus Christ said. You are then sealed with the Holy Spirit which lives inside of you. If you give back the gift you then goto Hell!

Simple as ABC.

webmaster · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 04:33 pm Post subject:

Spend some time and read/study these post.

Relationship with God
http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?t=4017

I Never Knew You
http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?t=4018

beads · Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:46 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Correction!

beads · Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:05 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Thank you! I look forward for you catching mistakes of mine my wise friend!

God Bless!

BryanX · Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:18 pm Post subject:

The belief, "once saved, always saved" or the belief that a person is predestined either to be saved or to be condemned is against Biblical teachings.

Man is not born with a label--to be saved or to be condemned. In fact, the Almighty God desires that all men repent and be saved:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (I Tim. 2:3-4, New King James Version)

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (II Pt. 3:9, New Internation Version)

So, it is not true that man has been predestined to salvation or to condemnation. The Bible teaches about predestination, but this is different from that being taught by some Protestant denominations. Apostle Paul declared the following:

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11, NKJV)

God has predestined man according to His purpose, that is, for man to "be holy and without blame" (Eph. 1:4, Ibid.). Yet, although God predestined man to be holy and blameless in His sight, He gave man free will--he has the freedom to choose which path to take:

"Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live! Choose to love the LORD your God and to obey Him and commit yourself to Him, for He is your life." (Dt. 30:19-20, New Living Translation, emphasis ours)

God gave man the choice between life and death and between blessings and curses. But the LORD did not merely give man choices. To prove His love for man, God specifically instructed man to "choose life" so that he may live.

The doctrine of predestination as upheld by some Protestant groups is not at all Biblical. In fact, this concept was only promulgated by the French theologian, John Calvin, one of the recognized leaders of the Reformation in the 16th century.

Omega · Guest

BryanX · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 09:28 am Post subject:

Alpha · Moderators Joined: 31 Dec 2002 Posts: 2461

Look, it's either you stay in the faith and try to follow Christ's ways and be saved, or you don't try to follow Christ and not be saved.

beads · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 10:43 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

BryanX, you can roll your eyes for all i care, your fruits of the Spirit have gave you away. It is a shame that you undermine the power of the Blood of Christ.

Furthermore you have judged me, which is another example of lack of spiritual growth, i am not a Catholic, i am non-denominational.

Maybe one day when you find God with all your heart, with all your strength with all your power and with all your mind, then will you realise and your eyes will be opened to the truth that any genuine believer who says that He or She is saved for sure, is saved for sure!

God Bless!

BryanX · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 08:32 pm Post subject:

BryanX · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 08:54 pm Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Omega · Guest

Epistle Online · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:25 am Post subject:

I will be posting a article on Once Saved Always Saved on my website soon. I have so many verses on this subject. Will post when its up
_________________
-Epistle Online-
www.epistleonline.com

BryanX · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:58 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

BryanX · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 01:15 am Post subject:

BryanX · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 01:26 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

BryanX · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 01:40 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

BryanX · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 01:56 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Epistle Online · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 02:48 am Post subject:

From the Jack Van Impe website

The moderator of a radio call-in program in Illinois had Dr. Van Impe for a guest. He hated Christianity and claimed to believe only the Old Testament. When the broadcast started, he announced that even though this was a call-in show, he would accept no calls from listeners because he wanted to use the entire hour to tear the evangelist to shreds. He started his tirade by saying, "I can't accept the three-headed God of Christians." In other words, he rejected and mocked the Trinity.

"Well, sir," said Jack, "since you believe only the Old Testament, I'll show you what that part of the Bible has to say about the Trinity."

Beginning then at Genesis 1:1 and showing that the very first mention of God is given in the plural Hebrew word Elohim, he moved through the Old Testament revealing the truth about the Trinity.

He pointed out that the plural word for God (Elohim), was used again at the creation of man (see Genesis 1:26), the Lord has a Son (see Proverbs 30:4), that the Lord speaks to the Lord (see Psalm 110:1), and that the Lord spoke of sending the Lord to the earth (see Zechariah 2:10,11).

At that point, the distressed disc jockey decided it was time to open the program to the calls of listeners.

Yeah send me what you got, I have a whole bible full of scriptures to show that Jesus is God, the second godhead of the trinity. I believe in one God! but as the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
_________________
-Epistle Online-
www.epistleonline.com

Epistle Online · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 03:26 am Post subject:

Jack Van Impe Against Once Saved Always Saved

JVI: Definitely, Rexella. "They profess that they know God but in works they deny Him" Titus 1:16. But Rexella,
I am tired of these churches and ministers who are spineless. They don’t have enough backbone to take a chiropractic adjustment.
They won’t preach out on sin. They give them all of the fun they want, jazz concerts and all of the rest. Listen to me. God says you
cannot live a life of sin and meet him on the other side just because you know the language. “This people honor me with their lips
but their heart is far from me”, Mark 7:6 God wants a holy people. I Peter 1:16, “Be you holy, for I am holy.” I Thessalonians 4:7, “
God hath not called us unto uncleanness but unto holiness.” Hebrews 12:14, “Without holiness, no man [no man] shall see the Lord.”
Now, you can know all the language, but if you’re life is not changed, you don’t have it. You may have walked an aisle and had a religious
exercise rather than an experience. Some of you are unconverted converts. What happens when you really know the lord?
You are raised to newness of life, Romans 6:4. II Corinthians 5:17, “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation, old things
are passed away. Behold, all things are become new." I John 5:4, “Whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world”.
And what is the world – "The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life”, I John 2:15-17. Oh, I could go on and on.
You are no longer are what you were when you got saved. “For you were sometimes the children of darkness, now you are a light
unto the Lord”, Ephesians 5:8. Paul says, “I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who hath enabled me for they counted me faithful who was
before a blasphemer, persecutor, and injurious, but I have obtained mercy”. Hey if you still are what you were, you isn't. That’s bad
grammar, but its good theology. You need an old dose of repentance, Acts 2:38 and turning to the Lord Jesus Christ and getting the
sin out of your life which He will forgive and forget if you come to Him.
_________________
-Epistle Online-
www.epistleonline.com

Omega · Guest

I actually spoke to Jack van Impe about where he stands on OSAS.

And he quoted this verse:Ephesians 4:30 - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

beads · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 10:01 am Post subject:

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Aineo · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 10:42 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

Epistle Online · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 03:42 pm Post subject:

Revelation Chapter 2:2-5

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

They have laboured, they have worked for God, lived for god, yet they have left thy first love. He asks for them to repent or otherwise he will come and remove the candlestick out fo his place.

If we were OSAS then there is no reason for the word REPENT to even be in the bible. If we are saved for ever then why must we repent. There would be no reason for it. Because we love God we repent? Thats exactly why we do, but there is still a purpose for repenting. We must sanctify ourselves. If we were OSAS there is no reason for sanctification. There is no reason for temptation on us by Satan, for we cannot fall and He could spend alot more time on those he could devour. We must endure til the end.

Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So we must overcome to make it in, then we will not have our names blotted out. That means there will be some to know God then to turn from him, and have our name blotted out. I believe no man can pluck us out of the fathers hand, but we can pluck ourselves. We were given a free will by God. It's our free will that we use to choose God and to endure til the end.

Matt 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 24: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Now in Mark 16:17 says "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now when you become a believer, you repent and you ask him into your life, (translation become saved), now any true believer knows you have to be saved and have Jesus Christ in your life to cast out devils. For only in his name can this be done. So if the lord says in Matthew that he shall have people say "didnt I cast out devils in your name" and then he says for them to depart from him, do you not think that they must have been saved, performing these miracles as it says, and then they turned from him in sin, or there old ways. They must have never repented of there sins.

Matthew 10:22
"(22)And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED."
_________________
-Epistle Online-
www.epistleonline.com

Epistle Online · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 04:17 pm Post subject:

Ezekiel 3:19-20

19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19 talks about those that are of wickedness, 20 about the righteous who turns from righteousness, and sins, and dies. God will not remember his righteousness. The vice versa of being saved. When saved he remembers no more our sins. We die in sin he remembers not our righteousness. "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Where they tree falls, there shall it lye.
_________________
-Epistle Online-
www.epistleonline.com

Omega · Guest

OK, This is my last response on the OSAS teaching.

Within the Scriptures one can clearly find that it is possible to know whether or not you are Truly Saved. There are some who believe that they are saved because they feel saved, that is not assurance at all.

How can anyone be sure that they are Truly Saved?

Christ is in our hearts{To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:1 Colossians 1:27}
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12
Clear understanding of the Scriptures{And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:20}
Witnessing to the Lost because of the Word of God {He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10}
Your prayers are answered{ And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 14:13,14}{And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 1 John 5:14}
And if we love our neighbors and brethren{We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 1 John 3:14}
If we are keeping His Commandments{Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17}
Witnessing of the Holy Spirit{ The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:16,17}

God Bless!

webmaster · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 09:24 pm Post subject:

What about somebody who was taught OSAS and has back slidden into sin? How do you all answer him. Which side do you tell him? Is this not where we should all be coming from in this topic?

The answer given to me was
Put it at the foot of the cross
Pick up your own cross and follow him!

http://www.electrosnap.com/saved/saved.htm

Omega · Guest

webmaster · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 09:51 pm Post subject:

What the millions upon millions who are taught OSAS as a 100% truth. To them it is scripture!
Just because we know better how does that help them if they have fallen into sin and questioning everything? What do you tell them?

OSAS is a lie?

OSAS is true?

Which confirms their faith?

Which destroys it?

Which in the future of either the 2 choices you teach them will not the devil use against them??

When do we do what God teaches us?

What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake

Omega · Guest

webmaster · Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Epistle Online · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 04:26 am Post subject:

If they are truly seeking salvation they will find. Any man that come unto me I will in nowuise cast out. If they walk away from God this was there choice. They are choosing of there own free will.

To those taught this and trying to tell them otherwise when they are sin and think its alright. I have many verses which a few I have already quoted on this. If they will not believe the bible then there is nothing mroe than that can be done except for prayer. If they are truly seeking God they will live right. If they don't want to hear the word then they want to live in denial for there own lifestyle preference and convienience. (spelled wrong, early in morining lol)
_________________
-Epistle Online-
www.epistleonline.com

Aineo · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 08:34 am Post subject:

Every text used to establish OSAS speaks to external forces removing the saved from the hands of God; not one of these verses addresses the believers free will choice to walk away from God.

The believers ability to overcome the world is predicated on remaining in Christ until the end. The Scriptures contain a lot of promises we as believers can stand on however many of those promises are conditional. As you study promises in Scripture pay close attention to those promises that begin if you as these are conditional promises.

beads · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 09:00 am Post subject:

Aineo · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 10:08 am Post subject:

beads · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 03:44 pm Post subject:

Aineo · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 04:22 pm Post subject:

webmaster · Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 08:43 pm Post subject:

Not wanting to change the topic but just asking for a reference.
Please state rather you believe in a pre trib, mid trib, post trib when you post about the OSAS. Don't discuss it just state which you believe.

Like this

Mid trib and not OSAS

or

Pre trib and OSAS

Thanks

Omega · Guest

LindaBee2 · Preacher Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 1407 Location: Oregon

Am I wrong in believing that the only way you can lose your salvation is if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 07:44 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 12:25 pm Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Hefty article you got there rob!

Omega · Guest

LindaBee2 · Preacher Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 1407 Location: Oregon

I just studied John 10. My mother purchased five study booklets from a local Christian store, and I'm currently in the booklet that covers the Book of John. The booklet just covered John 10, and I had to describe the analogy in spiritual terms.

Omega · Guest

This is off topic but must be posted, because the Lord told me so.

I notice that you commonly use the word scared or afraid

Aineo · Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 10:56 pm Post subject:

Omega, you are adding to God's word by adding "false convert" to what Jesus taught. Go back and reread that parable and you will find that your two false converts who fell away believed but went into apostasy for various reasons.

The seed that feel in the stony places and among the thorns were converted and then feel away. To use the words found in Hebrews they "tasted of the Spirit" and then departed the faith. If anything the parable of the sower disproves OSAS it does not confirm it.
_________________

Omega · Guest

Is everytihng OK?

LindaBee2 · Preacher Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 1407 Location: Oregon

It's perfectly natural to be afraid. But that's when you need the Lord most.

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 08:19 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 08:59 am Post subject:

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 10:25 am Post subject:

If I accepted once saved always saved as a valid doctrine I would buy into the heresy of the United Pentacostals some of whom believe once saved you can never sin again and therefore all your carnal actions are not sinful. Once saved always saved removes taking personal responsibility for your actions and choices you make in life.

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 11:28 am Post subject:

Are you avoiding the question about apostasy on purpose or does apostasy disprove OSAS?
_________________

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 02:39 pm Post subject:

Tell me Omega do you ever sin? According to the 1 John verse you quoted if you are born again you cannot sin. If you are going to stand on that verse then any man who sins is not born again. According to what you posted apostasy is the result of:

persecution
temptation
false teachers
lack of knowledge of the truth.

All of these have been present in the in the church since the crucifixion of Christ. In some aspects Calvin who first proposed OSAS was a false teacher since he taught infant damnation.

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 05:03 pm Post subject:

So when in Revelation when Jesus calls the churches to repent He is not calling the saved to repent?

The proof texts and rhetoric that people try to use to establish OSAS fall apart when the whole word is taken into consideration. The seed that was sown among the stones remains, but it does not produce fruit; the seed sown among the thornes ceased to produce fruit but the seed remained; it was the seed that produced a harvest that fell on good ground.

A life that produces fruit and then ceases to produce fruit is from another parable.

Omega · Guest

Aineo · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 07:17 pm Post subject:

No Omega, you are "interpreting" the plain teaching to defend a false doctrine. Your head must rule your emotions.

Jesus is the vine, and all the branches are believers otherwise they would not be part of the vine. The branches (believers) who don't produce fruit are cut away.

Now you can attempt to defend OSAS, however, the Bible is clear that only those who continue to the end will be saved.

webmaster · Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 08:23 pm Post subject:

Matthew chapter 24-25 is Jesus talking about the Rapture and then he gives 3 parables.
I think we all can agree with this so far.
Question then becomes who are the "servants of God" that Jesus is speaking about here?

He calls them evil servant, 5 foolish bridegrooms, wicked slothful servant, and goats on his left hand. All of these are speaken of in Revelation 14:14 and are cast into HELL!

Here are the Goats and the Sheep

beads · Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 09:18 am Post subject:

Aineo · Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 09:27 am Post subject:

beads · Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 10:08 am Post subject:

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