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Genesis: Let's cut to the chase...
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Nickatwarwick
Preacher
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Warwick Uni, Coventry
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 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 07:49 pm Post subject: Genesis: Let's cut to the chase... |
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Let's cut to the chase.
The argument concerning the literality of Genesis is going to continue for quite a while. I've learned a lot about it from some knowledgeable people on this forum [Thanks twohumble et al]. But at the end of the day, I think there's always going to be some questions that remain.
What I'm asking is whether this matters. Does Genesis have to be true for the rest/important stuff in the Bible to be inerrant? Can we take it as a fable designed to educate and placify those questioning their existence 4000 years ago, and move on to queries that concern us and our souls to this very day?
I just think a lot of people get bogged down in trying to prove the inerrancy of the Bible, when more people could be saved by Christians just saying:
"Yes, it might just be a story, but skip on the New Testament and discover how to believe in Christ Jesus and attain eternal life."
Nick
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Alpha
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Person A: "Yes, it might just be a story, but skip on the New Testament and discover how to believe in Christ Jesus and attain eternal life."
Person B: But wait a minute, if the account in Genesis is just a made up story, then how do I know if other parts of the Bible aren't made up? Also, if the account in Genesis is a made up story, this gives my belief in Darwinism something to stand upon.
| Nickatwarwick wrote: | | Does Genesis have to be true for the rest/important stuff in the Bible to be inerrant? |
Yes! Christ referred to Adam and Eve. If the story of Adam and Eve is not true, then Christ is a liar. And if Christ is a liar, He is not Lord, and their goes our faith! |
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Omega
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What I'm asking is whether this matters. Does Genesis have to be true for the rest/important stuff in the Bible to be inerrant? Can we take it as a fable designed to educate and placify those questioning their existence 4000 years ago, and move on to queries that concern us and our souls to this very day? |
| Quote: | All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16 |
When applied to scripture, the term innerancy means that what God had inspired and revealed is accurate and without error. And since all scripture is inspired, every single word of God is true. Like a book that refelects it's character of the writer. so the scripture is without error because God is without fault. Jesus spoke of innerrancy when He applied scripture and preached in Nazareth. He would read and stop in the middle of a verse before the announcement of the fulfilled scripture of that day.
Example:Isaiah 61:1,2
God Bless! |
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Chrysoprasus
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Joined: 29 Mar 2002
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Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 08:54 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it is neccessary to believe in Genesis. It is the basis for who God is and why we are here.
Chrys
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twohumble
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 07:55 pm Post subject: |
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Nick
Yes, I believe that in order to accept the bible as inerrent as a whole, we must not "throw out" a part cause we are uncomfortable with it. God did it, it will be understood at some point (maybe not till He reveals it), but to say "awe forget it, lets move on" is nieve, since this is a HUGE stumbling block to evangelizing to the secular world, not to mention, it would call into question the rest of the content for believers as well.
If we analyze liturature, we must not concude something is allegorical, if it does not clearly use allegorical style. Genesis is not an allegorical piece of liturature by any standard, and hence, should not be interpreted as such. Good exegesis is required, and that means 'free of bias from preconceived notions, or agendas'. If we do that, and use the proper context and field of reference, it all should fit with known and future science, since God is the author of both.
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snowwhite
Sunday School Teacher
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 39
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 07:25 am Post subject: Genesis |
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 Yes,Genesis is indeed vitally important,and you know it's good when so many liberals want to attack it!
Have you noticed how much the book of Genesis has been under attacl lately?
It must be true for satan to hate it so much,amen.
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General von Rauffenburg
New Convert
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Dortmund, Germany
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 08:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hello to everyone...
quite an interesting discussion, quite interesting questions, qutie interesting answers. I'll try to add my own ideas...
@ Nick
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I just think a lot of people get bogged down in trying to prove the inerrancy of the Bible
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Why does anyone even try to prove this? I think thats rather unnecessary. The Bible is inerrant. But I see a big differnce between inerrancy and literal/historical correctness. The Bible is one of the few books that I accept as holding the truth within. The truth of the bible is not depended on historical circumstances. And becasue truth must be inerrant the Bibel is inerrant. I hope you get my point  .
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What I'm asking is whether this matters. Does Genesis have to be true for the rest/important stuff in the Bible to be inerrant? Can we take it as a fable designed to educate and placify those questioning their existence 4000 years ago, and move on to queries that concern us and our souls to this very day?
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You do really think Genesis is an unimportant part of the Bible? I suppose the whole salvation of mankind done by Jesus Christ does not make sense without the creation and the original sin. Without knowledge about the sinful character of humans how could man truly understand the gift of salvation?
The old testament the the new testament form a unity and both complement one another... it is impossible to leave out parts from the old testament that correspond with parts from the new testament. You cannot revome the original sin and leave the salvation from sins. You cannot remove Adam and leave Jesus.
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I just think a lot of people get bogged down in trying to prove the inerrancy of the Bible, when more people could be saved by Christians just saying:
"Yes, it might just be a story, but skip on the New Testament and discover how to believe in Christ Jesus and attain eternal life."
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I think it is naive to think one could be saved by thinking that way. The problem is, that in fact one who thinks that way is unable to grasp the whole truth of the message of the Bible.
@Alpha
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Yes! Christ referred to Adam and Eve. If the story of Adam and Eve is not true, then Christ is a liar. And if Christ is a liar, He is not Lord, and their goes our faith!
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Actually Christ uses fables to illustate a certain message many times. It is not necessary for those fables to be true in order to do theri job. So if one assumes that Genesis is "just a story" it does not necessarily mean that Christ is a liar just because he refers to it.
@twohumble
| Quote: | If we analyze liturature, we must not concude something is allegorical, if it does not clearly use allegorical style. Genesis is not an allegorical piece of liturature by any standard, and hence, should not be interpreted as such. Good exegesis is required, and that means 'free of bias from preconceived notions, or agendas'. If we do that, and use the proper context and field of reference, it all should fit with known and future science, since God is the author of both.
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Stop with your flawed hermeneutics... You will need a certain bias in order to get anything from a text. Without "asking" the text anything there will be no answer coming from it. If you don't want to find faith you will not find it in genesis or anywhere else.
| Quote: | | Yes, I believe that in order to accept the bible as inerrent as a whole, we must not "throw out" a part cause we are uncomfortable with it. God did it, it will be understood at some point (maybe not till He reveals it), but to say "awe forget it, lets move on" is nieve, since this is a HUGE stumbling block to evangelizing to the secular world, not to mention, it would call into question the rest of the content for believers as well. |
I'd sign that. Although I suppose I have a different understanding of inerrancy.
@snowwhite
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Yes,Genesis is indeed vitally important,and you know it's good when so many liberals want to attack it!
Have you noticed how much the book of Genesis has been under attacl lately?
It must be true for satan to hate it so much,amen.
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I am quite a liberal I'd say. But I think attacking the book of Genesis is unnecessary and ridiculous. Btw. your "abuse" of satan to defame science and liberal people is ridiculous, too. |
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snowwhite
Sunday School Teacher
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 39
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 05:19 am Post subject: got a problem? |
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@GVR,your problem is not with christians it's with scientists who are christians. Lord Kelvin is a great example.
Liberals who want to have freedom in order to do things against God are wrong.
When there is no good and moral law,there will be no safety for none of us. All people will be in danger,not just the christians.
I don't attack satan,The Holy Bible does,and rightly so.
The book of Job tells us that we cannot know how God made everything.
When God asked Job if he knew,Job of course did not.
How can any of us expect to know how God made the world.
The Genesis account must be true,and I believe it.
Some things however are too wonderful for us to know,but you can know that every vitamin & mineral in the earth your body has and needs to live,so that is evidence we were from the dirt,amen.
You are a body,mind and a spirit,so you too are 3 in 1,and thats supports the trinity of God.
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General von Rauffenburg
New Convert
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Dortmund, Germany
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 08:18 am Post subject: |
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GVR,your problem is not with christians it's with scientists who are christians. Lord Kelvin is a great example.
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I firmly belive that science CONFIRMS the extistence of a creator rather than it refutes it. There is no scientific reason not to believe in God. I don't think I got a problem with those scientists that combine religion and science - I highly respect them.
I found some very interesting quotations of Lord Kelvin on wikipedia:
1."It seems to me that when a scientific man says--as it has been said from time to time--that there is no God, he does not express his own ideas clearly. He is, perhaps, struggling with difficulties; but when he says he does not believe in a creative power, I am convinced he does not faithfully express what is in his own mind, He does not fully express his own ideas. He is out of his depth."
2."Everything is in a state of evolution and progress."
I think they give impression of his way to combine Christianity with science.
The most disturbing fact is that many fundamental Christians seem to see a contrast between science and faith, but in fact it's our job to build bridges between both as they belong to each other.
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The Genesis account must be true,and I believe it.
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I think the truth of the Bible is not bound to the historical correctness of every single word.
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Liberals who want to have freedom in order to do things against God are wrong. When there is no good and moral law,there will be no safety for none of us. All people will be in danger,not just the christians.
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Freedom of course must have boundaries. Unlimited freedom would probably lead to what Thomas Hobbes called "bellum omnia contra omnes", the war of all against all. Yet that boundaries are to be set where they endanger life, health or property of others.
I suppose thr state of moral was not any better a thousand years ago. But to define moral behaviour is not very easy. I suggest reading some philosophical works, especially the impressive work of Immanuel Kant. |
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snowwhite
Sunday School Teacher
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 39
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 08:41 am Post subject: |
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Philosophy by the secular folks doesn't impress me at all. I steer clear of it.
We could spend all day accusing people of saying things and misqouting them,but I won't.
Liberals want it all,but they don't want to pay for it,not right!
America became free with the help of God,not man.
Man cannot save man,man corrupts man without God.
Do you not see that we are living in the times called the last days that the bible warned about and said would come?
Sodom & Gomorrah is here again,people are turning to fables and fairytales instead of the truth of the holy bible,and Evolution is mixing with pagan religions and occults. I don't want to be part of the popular crowd of the day or the times.
We are in the days of Noah again.
The Mother Harlot church is forming to create the global one world religion,and you want to debate things that have no right to be debated over?
We should be warning people about the false teachings of this time frame.
Apostasy is here .
The I.D. chip is a tracking device,and you think all these things are a coincidence?
If so then,fasten your seat belt because you are in for the bumpiest ride of your life !
Chow for now.
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Snowwhite |
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General von Rauffenburg
New Convert
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Dortmund, Germany
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 09:17 am Post subject: |
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We could spend all day accusing people of saying things and misqouting them,but I won't.
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Well I actually do not know, if this quote was incorrect, but I suppose it has been checked by some people. As I said it is from wikipedia.
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Liberals want it all,but they don't want to pay for it,not right!
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well as I told you, I am rather liberal than conservative. I do not want your property or your life.
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America became free with the help of God,not man.
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That in fact is a very dangerous thought... but I think this due to the fact that I am German. We've had our experience with believing in the devine character of our nation...
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Do you not see that we are living in the times called the last days that the bible warned about and said would come?
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Absolutley not.
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The Mother Harlot church is forming to create the global one world religion,and you want to debate things that have no right to be debated over?
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Could you explain this argument to me, I do not get it completely.
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The I.D. chip is a tracking device,and you think all these things are a coincidence?
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I don't like ID chips as wll, but that's mainly because I think they are an unnecessary boundary to personal freedom.
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Philosophy by the secular folks doesn't impress me at all. I steer clear of it.
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Probably a big mistake. Have you ever read Kant, Hegel, Platon or Aristotle? |
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snowwhite
Sunday School Teacher
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 39
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 10:27 am Post subject: hello again |
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Not all liberals believe as you do.
Do you know any other nation that has been blessed with Fredom like America has?
One Nation under God is what we still should be,amen.
Being German makes you somehow different?
The Mother Harlot Church is the new global church that they are already talking about,and wanting to create. They call it Inter-faithism,but the only catch to it is that you cannot say,believe or tell others that Jesus Christ is the only way to God or the only way you can be saved.
It is a pagan based church. If you look deep enough into pagan religions,you'll find the belief of evolution right in there among so many others.
Philosphy is not reality to me.
If you have not noticed,the world is not better it's worse today.
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Snowwhite |
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General von Rauffenburg
New Convert
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Dortmund, Germany
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Not all liberals believe as you do.
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Yes you are probably right. But being liberal means letting everyone believe what he or she accepts as his or her belief.
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Do you know any other nation that has been blessed with Fredom like America has?
One Nation under God is what we still should be,amen.
Being German makes you somehow different?
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I think the basis for your freedom is the constiution. The basis for your freedom was laid by the brave men and women that founded the 13 colonies and today it is guarded by your people.
Being German makes me different of course. Germany is a very different country, though i'd say we've got not less freedom than you got... but I suppose it is hard to compare it.
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The Mother Harlot Church is the new global church that they are already talking about,and wanting to create. They call it Inter-faithism,but the only catch to it is that you cannot say,believe or tell others that Jesus Christ is the only way to God or the only way you can be saved.
It is a pagan based church.
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I doubt any global chruch will succeed in becoming the one and only religion on earth.. at least at the current time. Look at the diversity of beliefs. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Budists...
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Philosphy is not reality to me.
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It is as real as Christianity is real. Philosophy has always had great influence on "reality". Kant stands for the age of Enlightenment, Aristotle represents the ancient greek way of thinking and had great influence on Christian thinkers during the middle ages, Karl Marx has elaborated the ideas of communism... just a few examples, but they all had "real" impact.
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If you have not noticed,the world is not better it's worse today.
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What should I notice? People live 80-100 years today. In the middle ages they lived 30 or 40 years. I think our world is better in many ways compared to the world thousand years ago. Yet it mainly depends in which part of the globe you live. |
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Nickatwarwick
Preacher
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Warwick Uni, Coventry
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 02:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hi there, you new kids on the block might be interested in another recent thread, "Genesis wrong => Bible Wrong",
where this original argument was continued in more depth. [If you haven't read it already...]
http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?t=4224
As you'll see my opinions changed as a result of the discussion, and I hope all who come to this forum do so with an open mind willing to learn about, if not agree with the views of others. And have fun doing it!
Cheers
Nick
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"If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use." - Robert Griffiths (Heinemann prize in mathematical physics) |
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snowwhite
Sunday School Teacher
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 39
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 05:04 am Post subject: born to be free |
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I also believe in freedom very much,I just don't believe in the freedom to do things that are ungodly or against God.
For example,when They said "Land of the Free" they didn't mean free to fornicate,ect....
History proves God right. We could all benefit by listening to God.
It's not the views of others that bothers me,it's how others have so little respect for God and what he feels and thinks about things.
We have German blood too in our family but we also have Jewish blood.
If you have not been made aware of this yet,The Roman Catholic Church accepts all faiths.They are accepting muslims,Jew's,all faiths. They want to unite all religious groups and denominations to form one church and allowing people to still believe in what they want to.They will accept every occult and every religion as long as you don't say Jesus is the only way to God.
Research this for yourselves.
They claim it's for the good of all people,and that we must tolerate each other and respect each others religious beliefs.
The only problem with that is that some of us,like me for example take the bible literally and believe what it says. Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved and reach The Holy Father.
This will put the true christians in danger,and make us look like the bad guys,and it's already starting.
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General von Rauffenburg
New Convert
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Dortmund, Germany
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| Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 09:30 am Post subject: |
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I also believe in freedom very much,I just don't believe in the freedom to do things that are ungodly or against God.
For example,when They said "Land of the Free" they didn't mean free to fornicate,ect...
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You don't have to buy pornographic videos and watch them and you don't have to fornicate. But I think it is freedom to have the decision for or against it. Yet I think the protection of the youth is important.
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If you have not been made aware of this yet,The Roman Catholic Church accepts all faiths.They are accepting muslims,Jew's,all faiths. They want to unite all religious groups and denominations to form one church and allowing people to still believe in what they want to.They will accept every occult and every religion as long as you don't say Jesus is the only way to God.
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I am baptized as a Roman Catholic (as about 30% of the Germans are). I have never heard a Roman Catholic priest teach a different way to salvation except through the belief in Jesus Christ. Roman Catholics believe in the Trinity of God, the divinity of Jesus, and the salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
or read the Nicene credo instead (though you will probably know that):
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten from the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of the same substance as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father (and the Son).
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
It is important to notice, that the Roman Catholic Church of course has the claim to be the all-embracing Christian church. Yet true Roman Cathloics believe in salvation through Jesus.
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They claim it's for the good of all people,and that we must tolerate each other and respect each others religious beliefs.
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There is a difference between tolerance/respect and acceptance.
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The only problem with that is that some of us,like me for example take the bible literally and believe what it says.
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I do not think it is necessary to take the Bible literally. It just lets you run in many problems and it does not help very much concerning faith - at least in my case. |
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snowwhite
Sunday School Teacher
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 39
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 04:21 am Post subject: free choice |
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Not many people control themselves. If the whole world thought and behaved like you & I perhaps there wouldn't be so much crime,but the fact is,many people get out of control and cannot handle such freedoms.
Also,it is not the catholic church alone that is in on this new global church,it will be almost all if not all churches.
I believe the bible literally,yet this won't be tolerated,my rights won't be protected. If I am here before the Lord Jesus Christ retuns,and these things happen,and people like me won't be tolerated,I could be killed.
In fact thats what will happen if I'm still here.
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General von Rauffenburg
New Convert
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Dortmund, Germany
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 09:17 am Post subject: |
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"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"... I dot that from a computer game . I think that quote contains some wisdom. Freedom demands high responsibility from the people. I think it is a matter of education and econimic conditions... if the education and the economy fail the chances will increase that the people can't control their freedom aynmore.
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Also,it is not the catholic church alone that is in on this new global church,it will be almost all if not all churches.
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Well that time of unification has yet to come. The credo that I quoted is still the offical doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. |
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snowwhite
Sunday School Teacher
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 39
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 09:26 am Post subject: |
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| General von Rauffenburg wrote: | "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"... I dot that from a computer game . I think that quote contains some wisdom. Freedom demands high responsibility from the people. I think it is a matter of education and econimic conditions... if the education and the economy fail the chances will increase that the people can't control their freedom aynmore.
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Also,it is not the catholic church alone that is in on this new global church,it will be almost all if not all churches.
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Well that time of unification has yet to come. The credo that I quoted is still the offical doctrine of the Roman Catholic church. |
Check out this site www.catholicconcerns
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Genesis: Let's cut to the chase...
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