What qualifies Muhamad as a prophet ?

WarriorofChrist · Assitant Deacon Joined: 24 May 2004 Posts: 59

Did Muhamad come from the lines of Prophets ?
All the lines of Prophethood came from the Jewish line
Muhamad was not of the line of Judah.

Did Muhamad produce miracles ?

All Prophets when they were put to the test produced Miracles, like Elijah, Moses, Jesus what about Muhamad ?

This is what happened when he was put to the test ?

Surah 6:37 And they said: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allâh is certainly Able to send down a sign, but most of them know not." (Al-An'am 6:37 )

Surah 6:57 Say (O Muhammad SAW) : "I am on clear proof from my Lord (Islâmic Monotheism), but you deny (the truth that has come to me from Allâh). I have not gotten what you are asking for impatiently (the torment). The decision is only for Allâh, He declares the truth, and He is the Best of judges." (Al-An'am 6:57 )

Surah 6:58 Say: "If I had that which you are asking for impatiently (the torment), the matter would have been settled at once between me and you, but Allâh knows best the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.)." (Al-An'am 6:58 )

Surah 17:90-93 90. They say: "We shall not believe in thee until thou cause spring to gush forth for us from the earth

91. "Or (until) thou have a garden of date trees and vines and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst carrying abundant water;

92. "Or thou cause the sky to fall in pieces as thou sayest (will happen) against us; or thou bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face;

93. "Or thou have a house adorned with gold or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read." Say: "Glory to my Lord! am I aught but a man an apostle?"

Muhamad could not produce one single miracle to prove he is a prophet of God, all he said is just I am but a man an apostle, while Jesus and all the Prophets produced Miracles.

Did Muhamad make prophecies of the future like all the Prophets of the bible ?

The bible is filled with Prophecies but where are prophecies in the quran.

I would like to know by muslims what makes muhamad different than the average Ishmael what makes him a Prophet of God ? please provide proof of his prophethood.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

farside · Assitant Deacon Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 71

Characteristics of Muhammad which prove his Prophethood

Muhammad, The Warlord [All Islamic Sources]

"Roughly speaking, the Prophet launched 80 campaigns during the ten years from his migration in A.D. 622 to his death in A.D. 632. Some of these campaigns were nothing more than reconnaissance missions. The numbers involved in them were minuscule, and all they did was to watch the movements of some clan or tribe. Some were missionary expeditions. Many others were minor skirmishes." source -- http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/20.htm

"Commencing from the battle of Badr, a series of eighty battles had to be fought, which the infant commmunity defended successfully." Source -- http://www.panjsher.net/learn_files/History/life_of_holy_prophet.htm

"The early Muslims fought many battles against their enemies under the leadership of the Prophet Muhammad or his representatives." http://www.irshad.org/islam/iiie/iiie_18.htm

Muhammad, The Polygamist

Sahih Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 5, No. 268: Narrated Qatada: Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

Muhammad, The Pedophile

Sahih Bukahri Vo. 5, Book 58, No. 236: Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Muhammad, The Slave Owner

Sahih Bukhari Vol. 9, Book 91, No. 368: Narrated 'Umar: I came and behold, Allah's Apostle was staying on a Mashroba (attic room) and a black slave of Allah's Apostle was at the top if its stairs. I said to him, "(Tell the Prophet) that here is 'Umar bin Al-Khattab (asking for permission to enter)." Then he admitted me.

Muhammad, The Slaver

Sahih Muslim Book 010, No. 3901: Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported: There came a slave and pledg- ed allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)

Muhammad, The Executioner

Sahih Bukhari Vol. 8, Book 82, No. 795: Narrated Anas: The Prophet cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of 'Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died.

Muhammad, The Superstitious

Sahih Muslim Book 004, No. 1032: Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.

Muhammad, The Control Freak

Sahih Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 56, No. 668: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Jews and the Christians do not dye (their grey hair), so you shall do the opposite of what they do (i.e. dye your grey hair and beards)."

P.S. All verses came from here: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

Kind Regards,
Farside

K-J-M · New Convert Joined: 24 Jun 2004 Posts: 10

WarriorofChrist: The quotes that you used from the Quran were regarding people who wanted Muhammad to produce signs for thier own vain desires, would you not consider a book breathed by God as being a miracle? If you would read the Quran you will find that there are prophecies, such as what will happen on Judgement day to name a majour one.

Farside: Not one of those Quotes came from the Quran, Muhammad only revealed the Quran and not the books you are quoting. Don;t you find it odd that this negative image of a prophet is based on books no where mentioned in the Quran?

pz
_________________
There is no God but God.

zampeada · Assitant Deacon Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

Believer · Preacher Joined: 05 Oct 2003 Posts: 1462 Location: South

zampeada · Assitant Deacon Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

farside · Assitant Deacon Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 71

St. Paul's Chapter on Love is superior to all the verses of the Quran.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude.

Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Kind Regards,
Farside

Karaite · Assitant Preacher Joined: 24 Jun 2004 Posts: 103

zampeada,

Your post shows me that you have probably never read the Bible, especially Genesis.

Everything the Qu'ran could come up with, is borrowed from different religions, as well as from the same heathen tribal religions of Arabia.

The Bible is the one that says that God created in six days; the Qu'ran copied that, and even forgets how long it took... there is a verse that says "two days", and there is another variations, I just can't recall it.

It was the Bible which said that "He stretches out the heavens", indicating the expansion of the universe.

It was the Bible which said that in the beginning there was "chaos", and that in the beginning there was "water" all over the place.

If you would just open yourself up to the possibility, you would realize that the Qu'ran is not what it claims to be.

Kaiser · Sunday School Teacher Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 31

May peace be on all of you,

As for miracles performed by Prophet Muhammad(puh), his greatest miracle was the Quran itself. Other than this, he performed many miracles during his Prophethood including parting the moon, which is mentioned in a number of Hadith as well as the Quran itself, which says in Surah Qamar, verse 1:

"The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder. "
_________________
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
(The Holy Quran, 4:82)

zampeada · Assitant Deacon Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

zampeada · Assitant Deacon Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

zampeada · Assitant Deacon Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

Karaite · Assitant Preacher Joined: 24 Jun 2004 Posts: 103

Ammar · New Convert Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 4

Muhammad split the moon into two on the desire of the unbeleivers yet they did not beleive and said that this was magic. Would you consider that as a miracle?
and its not miracles that make a prophet a prophet. Its his truth and peace fullness and his Generousity and their are a thousand other things that make a prohpet a prophet.
_________________
My Religion is Islam. May God enlighten my way to truth.

Believer · Preacher Joined: 05 Oct 2003 Posts: 1462 Location: South

What was the purpose in splitting the moon?
God doesn't do random tricks and stuff to impress people.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

alimustafakhan · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:38 am Post subject:

Hi,

Just a general comment. I was not a forum giy till a fe days back, when I joined an apologetics forum. The standard in which people talk here is just far below, to what I have got used too. All these claims that have been made have been refuted by me in the other forum too, but here I dont think that you guys deserve the answer, because you are so unprofessional in your approach.

Please lift up the standard of what you write, the way you write and whenever quoting religion, provide refrence otherwise the statement is useless if it cant be traced back.

Bye for now... Ali
_________________
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say: "This is from God" to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby." Holy Quran, Surah Baqrah, Verse 9.

God'schild · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:42 am Post subject:

_________________
hate religion, love jesus www.gotel.org

H2O · Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 01:33 am Post subject:

Hmmm, I am thinking, maybe I should or mayby I should not. I would like to know how does the concept life and death of Jesus in Christianity mimic Mithra, and Krishna ?

Here is the answer. True Christianity became paganized after Jesus when it spreaded to the gentile lands.

If anyone reads the belief, life and death of Mithra and Krishna there is an EXACT parallel to the belief, life, and death of Jesus held by Christianity in which Mithra and Krishna existed WAY BEFORE Christ.

One will start to wonder, who copied who

_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

Kai Hagbard · Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 05:06 am Post subject:

H2O wrote:

H2O · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 02:17 am Post subject:

What qualifies Jesus as a prophet ?
_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

Kai Hagbard · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 02:53 am Post subject:

You did not answer my question H2O?

H2O · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 03:32 am Post subject:

_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

Kai Hagbard · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 05:08 am Post subject:

I will leave it then. Perhaps some one else is able to take up the challenge.

Peace Kai

H2O · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 01:24 pm Post subject:

Why should I explain to a person like your self when it is clear you will still not believe. Your not seeking for truth, cause you believe as a christian you already have the truth.

I have payed attention to your posts, and it is clear you have no sencere intention of learning to understanding islam but only out of wantoness.
_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

Kai Hagbard · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 08:17 pm Post subject:

But what exactly is it you want me to believe? You were not describing Islam, but making statements that Christianity has been effected by ancient religions, you mentioned Mithra and Krishna, so fair enough I asked you to provide some sources to prove you point. I simply dont see where the matter of believing or learning about Islam fits into this issue.

H2O wrote:

H2O · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:11 am Post subject:

Then in that case I will answer your Question. Give us some time.
_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

H2O · Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 05:05 am Post subject:

What qualifies Muhamad as a prophet ?

This is a critical question as on the bases of:

1) What are the qualifications of a Prophet ?

2) By whom are these qualification deemed ?

3) What is a Prophet in semetic terms ?

Number "1" is based on number "2" which can be deemd by ones own opinion, or religious indoctrination.

When we are seeking for truth we set criteriors for our selves to determine what a thing is or is not by merits.

What is a Prophet or in the semitic term "Nabi" should be defined.
A "Nabi" is one who does not speak his own words but the words G-D commanded him to say by divine revelation.

This is the strict meaning of the word. Who is qualified as a "Nabi ~ Prophet" is merited by one's self and the rules he/she adopts as their criterior to determine who is a true Prophet of G-D or not.

So in my case, not speaking for no other muslim but my self and those whom may agree with me, how does Muhammad qualify as a Prophet of اللّــه G-D that satisfies me ?

1) The logical consistancy of the Quran.

2) The rational and challenge it gives

3) The wisdom and reasoning it applies

4) Its natural aspects it delivers that conforms with nature it self

5) The obedience it asks toward اللّــه with reverence and love.

6) How to live in submission to اللّــه with balance in life

7) How to treat others as you would want to be treated by another

Its message is direct, blunt, and to the point

9) The belief in اللّــه oneness and the uniqueness of his divinity and the exalted manner of His sublime majesty

10) The belief in the prophets adn that اللّــه sent prophets to all nations of people

11) The belief in angels, scriptures, the life after death, hell, paradise, judgement day, and the resurrection.

This is how I came to believe the Quran was from Allah qualifying Muhammad as Prophet. Needless to say my belief in him as a Prophet was not sparked by the prophecies or Scientific indications of unseen realities through out the Quran. These things merely increased my belief but was not the cause or the root of it.

What may appear to us as prophecies or Scientific indications of unseen realities in the Quran may not appear the same for another especially with a biased and prejudice mind, as everyone will not see the same thing to the same degree.

What may seem rational and clear to one may not be the same for another, as some may understand and others will not.

As for me there is no need to defend my reason and to further discuss what qualifies Muhammad as a Prophet cause it is according to me and what is acceptable to me, and not according to the dogma of Christianity or Judaism etc. that will prejudice such a thing based on its own indoctrinated beliefs or preinfluenced.
_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

H2O · Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:31 pm Post subject:

webmaster · Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 01:12 pm Post subject:

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

alifaia · Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 04:56 am Post subject:

Liberate :

alifaia · Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 05:05 am Post subject:

Liberate :

Also do you know of this thread http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?t=3543
????
it is a sticky note... talking about respecting others and their faiths... a simple question... would Jesus go around calling other liars and rapists etc??? and condem them??? do you remember the story of the jews who wanted to stone the adultress??? and Jesus said "He who has no sin can cast the first stone" is your behaviour in line with what Jesus taught???

Plz remember that anything you say and do is noted down for future reference... no one gets to heaven on a free ticket... everyone pays the price.... You say you are a re-born christian... hence you are in Christ... does a person who is "In Christ" act like this? outright animosity!!! zero tolerance!!! Why do you think Jesus died on the cross??? just to save your sorry rear end??? no my friend... it was an example for all... tolerance... Tolerance is the key.

Is a reborn christian justified in accusing others of negative ideas???

Plz reflect on this

Peace

Ali
_________________
Smile everyone!!!

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

H2O · Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 01:14 pm Post subject:

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

H2O · Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 02:25 am Post subject:

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

newseed · Preacher Joined: 07 Apr 2004 Posts: 1040 Location: Florida

Peace H2O,

H2O · Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:55 am Post subject:

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

alifaia · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 01:27 am Post subject:

Hi Liberate... first off... my apologies for the "save your rear end" comment.... i shouldnt have said it... got carried away....i was under the impression that you were just making claims with no actual study... anyways... How are you doing?? all well i hope....

H2O · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 03:47 am Post subject:

H2O · Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:04 pm Post subject:

Ah ! Liberate musbe didnt wake up yet, or he went off to work, or he is writting a novel rebuttle.

It was late last night and I wanted to finish the post but mey eye were caving in on me so I just didnt care and just hit send so I could go to bed

.

I will finish up later on the reason why I do not accept Ibn Kathir's interpretation of that verse. And again Liberate scholars do not dictate Islam, they are merely men who are contributing with the best of their knowledge, which is their opinions. You obviously forgot the meaning of the word TAFSIR, it is a commentary of opinion of someones interpretation.

We do not consider them (Scholars) to be infalible in their knowledge, they are subject to error just like any other human being. We have a choice to agree or to disagree with a scholar as long as we have grounds to do so in which I will explain in my next post.
_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

H2O · Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 01:32 am Post subject:

alifaia · Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 05:51 am Post subject:

Goodmorning Liberate... How are you??? all well i hope...

i do not know what your view is of bukhari and muslim etc ... for me.. they are not divine books... altho they are called sahih (true) it still is man made... it is written by common men... events they heard from other common men... who are fallible... so everything in them cant be taken as the absolute truth... it is a proven fact that quite a bit of info in them is false... the hadith books that it... i being a shia dont believe init 100%.. as a matter of a fact even the shia hadith books like al-kafi etc are not 100% gauranteed... Having said this... the first thing i am sure that will pop up in your mind is "then how do we know which is right and which is not"... the way the scholars do it they judge the hadiths against the Quran .. and not the other way... i.e. using the hadith to confirm the Quran... if the hadith matches or si in line wiht the Quran then its ok else it isnt... also ... just because a hadith conforms with the Quran doesnt make it real... it too has to be real on its own... so ... we study the people who have relayed this hadith... and if any person in the chain of narrations is found to be unreliable ... i.e. a proven liar etc... then this hadith will be categorized in a different section... i.e. belonging to unreliable persons section ... etc....

now... as for the verses you brought up... the one about not raising ones voice ... let me post the entire section...

Sura 49
[Shakir 49:1] O you who believe! be not forward in the presence of Allah and His Messenger, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[Shakir 49:2] O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.
[Shakir 49:3] Surely those who lower their voices before Allah's Messenger are they whose hearts Allah has proved for guarding (against evil); they shall have forgiveness and a great reward.
[Shakir 49:4] (As for) those who call out to you from behind the private chambers, surely most of them do not understand.
[Shakir 49:5] And if they wait patiently until you come out to them, it would certainly be better for them, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

now... consider this... you are standing infront of Jesus... plz tell me honestly... would it be right for you to raise your voice in his presense??? How about if you started shouting at him??? would such behaviour towards a man of God seem right??? In anycase ... the verse in question has dual meaning... 1. when it was revealed and 2.the eternal meaning.
At the time it was revealed it was said that certain companions of his were arguing over something trivial... in his presence.. rather than asking him for a solution they chose to resolve it using heated words... and in the presence of a man of God.... obviously such behaviour was uncalled for... and they were reprimanded....
the 2nd meaning is .... people from the begining spoke out against the Prophet's rulings... whenever they did not like a solution... they spoke out... not because an injustice was done to them... but because they were not really true God-fearing-persons and were more attached to worldly matters... and everytime Prophet Muhammed had to explain his rulings... or rather scold them... Tell me ... if Jesus said to you today... empty your entire life savings and give it away... and you said "Why?" would this "why" denote a question of Jesus' authority??? yes.. because you doubt his authority you said "why"... similarly no person has any right to contradict with a God-person... no one can question a Prophet... the moment one questions a Prophet... automatically that Prophets authority has been questioned... How would God feel if some common mortal questioned His Pprophet's authority???

You quoted 49:2.... plz read after that as well... because clarification is given in 49:3... those who do not raise their voices in a Prophets presence will be rewarded etc.... [Just a side question .... did you read this verse from the Quran and then posted or did you read this from some Christian authored book ... just an honest question... because i feel that the hatered you have in you is mainly due to such anti books... ofcourse i too have a lot of anti-christian books... but now having read them and cross-ref-ing it with the Bible... eg Ahmed Deedats books for instance... i see that these athors didnt really do a full research ... it was a "ok i got what i wanted... the rest is unimportant" attitude... and to be unbiased... i have to discount these books as well... anyways... this is unrelated here.. if you wish plz let me know.. other wise its ok..

]

now the verse about entering the house... tell me.. when you visit a friend... do you barge right into his/her bedroom??? or do you patiently knock/ring at the door and wait for someone to come and open it?? its called manners.. how about if you are with your wife or you are taking a shower or whatever... how would you feel if someone just barged right in???? ofcourse you would be pissed... maybe even angry... and who know what an enraged mind will say or do... thats why its said to ask for permission to enter... obviously this verse indicates that manners were not well developed back then... people just slammed open the door and waltzed right in... or atleast there was some invasion of privacy... However the incident of Zaynab as you pointed out... well i couldnt find any ref.. could you be so kind as to provide one.. if what you say is true i need to look into it... thanks.. as for the asking women part... tell me... is it ok for you if say the milkman showed up at your doorsteps and your wife answered in say.. a revealing dress??? a low cut night gown or whatever... maybe in the west it is a acceptable fact for wives to present them selves to other non-related men in revealing dresses but in Islam it is prohibited... for the sole reason of preserving a womans honour... interestingly enough everysingle image i have seen of the Virgin Mary... she is completely covered... except for her face no other part of her bare flesh is shown... its called modesty...

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

H2O · Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 01:26 pm Post subject:

assalaamu alaikum alifaia

alifaia · Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 08:25 am Post subject:

Good morning Liberate... how are you??? all well i hope...

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

alifaia · Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 08:14 am Post subject:

I take it you are not here to learn... but to teach... and teach what you feel is correct... even if the entire world says you are wrong.

Lets get some things cleared up... Hadith books... they are not divine. unless you can produce a document which represents the "95% of Islam" population who say these hadith books do not contain any mistakes ... all your current and past and future arguments are pointless...

Just because you can copy paste doesnt make anything true or false. So... lets see this document which represents the 95% ... all who unanamously agree that these hadith books are 100% correct... not one mistake is contained in them...

Your problem is you dont know Islam. You read a few anti islamic books or articles or maybe listened to you firebrand pastor... and just repeating what he is saying... and since he or you are guided by the holy ghost 24x7 you cant say anything wrong.... or you read some islamic books whose authenticity you are not aware of... and then come to your own conclusions... based on your own western culture.moral values etc... If you want to explain Islam... you will need to put yourself in a muslims shoes... and then explain it... I am not saying you have to be muslim to explain... but you need to be in that mind frame... Ever heard the phrase Innocent until proven guilty??? you should have... its a western phrase... all you have done is pick some incidents... which suit your purpose... without checking its authenticity... and portrayed it as the absolute truth.

Let me make it clear for you.

Hadith books are books containing collections of hadiths. They are JUST that. COLLECTIONS. The authenticity of each and every hadith has NOT been verified. These are mere collections. THEY ARE NOT DIVINE BOOKS. CONSIDERING THESE BOOKS TO BE INFALLABLE IS A MISTAKE ON THE CLAIMERS PART.... namely you.

I typed the relevent text in bold capital letters to make my point clearer. Hope you understand this and henceforth you wont make such assertions... that since its there then it must be real.

now that that is out of the way... lets get back to topic.

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

H2O · Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 02:10 am Post subject:

alifaia · Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 08:36 am Post subject:

H2O · Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:30 pm Post subject:

Loki · Preacher Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 453

i was interested in knowing more about christianity only. If i wish to learn more of Islam i would go to a muslim site... reading islamic info from a christian site... well what can i say... its stupid.

Stupid, like? learning false christian believes from a self proclaimed prophet six hundreds years after it happend as truth? and sticking by it, while everything proves you wrong in the face of historical, archeological and theological evidence?

would you accept catholic references proving christianity or greek orthodox books or something that you do not believe in but is considered to be christian???

your entire beliefs are based on those hadiths... the sharia law consists 90% of what is in the hadith... as are the rituals of your daily prayer included in that book? why do you use a book full of corruption? why do you let a book that slanders your prophet excist? the muslim world is eager to destroy religious books and doesn't allow western freedom philosophers to be teached... yet it's all up for naming your prophet a pedophile and rapists. as well do large muslim groups like shia's and wahhabi's take great faith in the hadiths... are they not muslims then?

how does the quran is a book that stands on it's own, when it relies for 90% on the hadith for social life... the bible has no need for apocrypha. and stands on it's own. quran without hadith, is as a car without it's engine.

men are known to be over-zealous in their "faith" and then there are muslims who just wanna throw in some crap... just for the fun of it

christians had in it's early years problems with gnostic and heretic sects... and myths that were spread around, yet unlike Bukhari we never had one man picking out and compiling what he thought was true and destroying all the others. the canon in christianity happend in agreeance with early church fathers (many people who lived in the first and second generation and heard the traditions directly from apostles or from the apostles disciples, and who could of still contradicted myths if they came into circulation) and over a period of twohundred years (not in the lifetime of one man).

Christians allready sorted out truth from error... at the very beginning. You on the other hand claims that islam teaches truth with error... concerning the hadiths. The same hadiths wich are used in sharia laws and wich define your daily prayers, etc...

the question is which ones are right and which ones are not .... thats where common sense and logic steps in... Altho i am not an authority on Islam... i do have a brain. i call it as i see it... even if the entire world's muslim priests disagreed with me... i will not step back. after all they too are mere humans capable of making mistakes...

if you know wich ones are right, and wich ones are wrong, why don’t you destroy the wrong ones? Why don’t you make perfect hadiths? Instead of leaving all muslims in confusions and doubt concerning verses. And didn’t Bukhari knew what was right and wrong all along? How can the 21th century muslims have better judgement on islam then the early islam fathers?

So what if they were written by muslims??? are muslims error-free? NO..

Destroys the hadiths, they are of no need… if you only can use quotes that agree with the quran, then the hadith is of no use... everything is allready in the quran then. And everything that isn’t, isn’t islam. So basiclly your saying to use the quran only... yet then you abolish sharia law, the 5 times prayers and some other vain superstitions in islam.

Either all existing hadiths are false and Islam has to basis or all hadiths are true and Islam is a sham???

If the quran is a book that stands on it’s own, why do you need hadiths? If it can’t live without a hadith (wrong or right), then your religion is a sham. ‘cause it contradicts the statement that the quran is a complete, clear book that stands on it’s own.

Concerning Gen 11:27-29 and Gen 19:30-36: Gen 19:30-36 If you have an answer to this "disgusting anti-christian" behaviour.. that answer will be the answer you seek.

Just because the Bible records that people lied, stole, and had numerous wives doesn't mean that God approves of such things. The Bible is an accurate record of what happened in the lives of real people. As a result, the mistakes and foolish choices of people are recorded with honesty.

Is that absurd? No, not by a long shot... what sounds more absurd for example is a prophet bargaining with Allah for daily prayers, and then Moses correcting the greatest prophet Muhammed and sending him back to Allah, because Allah’s judgement is wrong. As if Heaven is one giant bargain market. (on this hadith is what you base your 5 daily prayers)

Miracle = The Quran
Prophecy from the Bible : Deu 18:18
Prophethood established.

That poor excuse of a book is a miracle? By what rule? What does that book do, that no other can or did? Miracles are seen in judo-christian theology, occurences that defy the rules of nature. The quran doesn’t do this.

And please read the bible, Deuteronomy 18:18 is about the brethen of the Levites. Muhammed isn’t jewish is he.

That’s a pathetic attempt to proof prophethood my friend, i hope this is not the best you got.

No one vouched for Jesus. Who made him Prophet? meaning does a person have to second a person who claims Prophethood??? Who vouched for Moses? Aaron?? Joshua?? were they in direct communication with God??? Did they recieve revelations?? did they encounter the burning bush? Meaning... vouching for someone doesnt make that person a Prophet... I can vouch for another person... does it make him a prophet??? Meaning... this is an irrevelent criteria for prophethood.

More then 300 prophecies about Jesus make him the most prophecied prophet to excist.
Plus Jesus wasn’t a self proclaimed prophet. Jesus was proclaimed prophet by John the Baptist who was prophecied by Malachi.

Moses may sound like self proclaimed... yet unlike any other self proclaimed prophet, Moses could proof his divine message with great astonishing miracles. Even escaping the great Egyptian empire at old age, with slaves.

Prophecy isn’t the only thing that proves prophethood (like miracles, prophet’s fruits, agreeance with previous covenants, etc....), yet concerning a religion like Islam, one person should imagine God made a prophecy about such a major change if it’s of the same revelations.

(Mat 23:33-39; Rev 6:8; Rev 20:15) hmm... Threatening one to be in religion you say huh?? hmm...

u should be used to being threatend by now if you read the quran… and how easy is it not to quote the revelations… if you follow Jesus(God), you wouldn’t have to worry about being intimitated by such in the first place. These are warnings concerning the end times, something totally else then forced commandments “give a woman 100 lashes for adulatry this punishment pleases Allah and if you don’t believe this, you’ll fry in hell”.

Is that why paul abolished the law??? called it a curse??? We dont need laws... we are good christians.. good deeds will automatically come from us... hmm.. maybe thats why the civilised christian world has be fighting with anyone and everyone and themselves for the past 2000 yrs.

You forgot to mention the eighty Muhammed campaigns, the four caliphs conquests, the ottoman conquests, the wars with Israel, the numerous terrorist organisations, the parsis, christian, hindu and jewish persecutions.

Paul didn’t abolish any laws. The laws were fullfilled by Jesus, not destroyed. The laws are God’s justice system... and the sinners (wich was everyone) had to pay for our transgressions. Yet the judge himself stood up, and paid them for us instead. The law still goes. It’s not because someone payed your punishment for theft, that from now on theft is not a sin anymore.

sura 17:1 Most glorified is the One who summoned His servant (Muhammad) during the night, from the Sacred Masjid (of Mecca) to the farthest place of prostration [If this verse is coming from God why would God be talking to Himself in the third person, and greeting Himself??]

God is talking in the 3d person, who is talking? Don’t you see the problem here... If the quran as claimed is every letter to be of God, then who is talking? Another example are the numerous verses in wich Allah says: “Inch Allah...”
Is muhammed talking? Then the quran is not the ultimate word of God, cause it contains words of muhammed
Is God talking? Then does God not know what he wills?

on reading this verse it automatically creates an image that some of the companions of the Prophet has a serious problem with manners... barging in the door... endless gossip... vain talk..etc.. does such behaviour infront of a God-sent Prophet seem ok to you? Or will you argue that i dont need a book to teach me manners!!!!! point is there were some who had no manners... and there still are some... this verse is relevent to them... and to others as a guideline to a decent society...

you think it’s very social to invite someone, give him food, and then kick him out without having anything said? If people are annoying, then you don’t forbid them to be... nor should you show to be annoyed if that is the case, since he is your guest and you invited him with all his/her inperfections because you are supposed to like the person you invite!!

If their is one reason why your supponsly allah sent prophet had problems with chit chat, is probably because they discussed religion with him... muslim majorities weren’t around yet, so all people if they invited muhammed had to be pagans, jews and or christians. Surely if they discussed religion with muhammed he’d become in trouble, and be embarrased in front of his followers.... one thing to prevent this, is forbid his followers and himself to talk at meals.

And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.

Acctually Muhammed was again the only muslim who had this priviledge, if it concerns other muslims they should allow their wifes to be remarried... yet even ‘the prophets’ young wifes if they’d ever fall in love again or wished to have a family were forbidden to have one.

ok.. what did they have??? Jesus' words??? a few feats of magic? i ahve already proven to you that excorsism and sticks to snakes can be from the devil...

how can the devil drive out himself? Theirs a rebutal in the gospels if you ever read this, explaining this. It’s refuted by Jesus himself.

Mark
3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

so we are back to square one... how did the 12 disciples know Jesus was who he claimed to be? Did they get divine revelations???

- Prophecies
- Miracles
- Exorcisms
- Ressurection

Jesus 4 – Muhammed 0

How did the other Prophets recieve their divine messages???

Certainly not in ways that are demonic, or ways that destroy the previous real word of God. Only a fool or the devil would do such.

“which son is happy to have his father marry his wife, that is just plain weird.”
is an adopted son the same as biological son? what is it that sets relationships??? blood line or paper??? or is your argument based on western ethics only???

It’s still his wife, and if it’s a stepfather... it’s like marrying your wife to a stranger. You’d like your wife doing that to any man who proclaims himself prophet? Well i say i speak with divine authority! Don’t ask miracles i don’t have any, just believe me or you’ll fry in hell, and give me your woman!

i bet if you were to seriously equate 3 with 1 i.e. 3=1 you would reach a junction where you will begin to doubt... such questions are refered to here. Islam isnt about follow the leader... question everything but not in a stupid manner

the trinity is the God of the judo-christian scripture, by denieing this, your denieing that you believe in the same God ! whoever Allah is, he isn’t who he claims he is to be!
Your omniscient God even got the trinity wrong in the quran, he claims we have 3 Gods, that trinity consists out of Mary, Jesus and the holy spirit... you must first begin with knowing that your Allah got trinity completly wrong in order for you to understand it.
The trinity is a simple explenation of One God manifesting himself in three ways. It’s God, the spirit of God, and the word of God. Is this such a hard theological concept for you to get? It’s not 3=1, it’s 1=1=1... simple as that. If you want to learn christianity do it in a sincere way. Ahmed Deedat ain’t gonna learn you christianity my friend.

Peter rebuked Jesus because he loved him very much??? Does such a behaviour seem right towards a God-sent man???

Peter rebuked Jesus because he was afraid to share the same faith Jesus was getting. He was a coward in times of danger. Jesus knew this upfront, since he is God, and knows everything. Sure Peter was one of the most beloved disciples of Jesus and Peter trusted in himself that he was... yes Jesus he knew that Peter still had doubts.

which brings us to sqare 1 again.. how or waht are the requirements for Prophethood??? and may i add... what makes one a false prophet as well??

I gave you requirements for prophethood allready:
- miracles
- prophecies
- agreeance with the previous covenant
- also according to OT jewish tradition a prophet needed to be accepted by the sandhredin (obviously since the jews don’t accept jesus, and as read in the gospel, jesus wasn’t accepted, on basis of false accusations, but that’s an issue with jews and not with muslims)

False prophet:

1. Deceiver - Use of fake miracles:
"...false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time" --Matthew 24:24-25
2. Prophecies won’t come out:
"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:20-22
3. will have bad fruits
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits... Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." Matthew 7:15-17
4. he may not add unto the book
"....If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." -- Revelation 22:18-19

Past prophecies are subject to individuals interpretations... i claim Deu 18:18 as his prophecy... and i also claim the verse where Jesus says " I must leave for the comforter to come.... etc" but you being a christian will deny it. so?? solution??? what is to be done about it?

Acctually a christian will not denie it, he will explain it and neither are they subjective, but clearly defined in the book what they are about.

Read Deuteronomy 18 at the beginning for once, and you’ll see he’s adressing the levites. Muhammed was not a Jew, so this prophecy is NOT about him, no matter how you twist and turn it

The comforter is being explained, a couple of verses later by Jesus himself!
John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

Now with them being refuted, where are your arguments now?

Have you heard of the aprochripal book of Abraham?? i have a copy if you are interested...

Acctually i’m interested in it’s authencity first.... when was it found, dated, etc... and then i will read it. I’ve even seen muslims who think the gospel of barnabas is truth. So i don’t believe any muslim who claims to know something about judo-christian scripture unless he can back himself up.

“John the baptist was prophecied.“
He claimed a prophecy for himself

John the baptist was prophecied in Malachi 3:1:
"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.

Did God say HE would protect the book?? if He did then the extra 6 books that the catholic church has... are they part of the real book or is the protestent version the real deal??

God say he would let the gospel(good news) be heard over the entire world...
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. -- Matthew 24:14
has he kept his promise or not?

So satan can take a light form.. hmm interesting... btw.. if you have read Acts in the NT .. you will come across the incident of Paul and his "vision" of a bright light...

Paul was confirmed by Peter (who was a disciple of Jesus) to be a legitimate apostle, as did he confirm with Jesus’ teachings... and did he spoke in tongues, and did he miracles, their is no dispute that Paul was sent by none other then Jesus.

Acctually Paul made one of the most astonishing remarks on Islam before it came into existence.
"...if we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed... again... let him be accursed." -- Galatians 1:8-9

Are you more knowledgable that Arius?? in case you dont know it.. he was a unitarian.. he was totally anti - trinity.. do you know more than him??? Emperor constantine recognised him by inviting him to the 325AD nicea round table meeting...

Yes well many heretics were called to that nicea meeting, don’t seek to much honor in that... cause they discussed theological dispute... and those that were the most in agreeance with the early christian tradition were generally accepted. Arius wasn’t one of the people that got much agreeance with his anti-trinity beliefs and was exiled as a heretic.

Is the word of God seperate from God ??... I am tryin to visualize it... there is God and then there is the word of God (tape recorder) 2 seperate entities... and then there is the or rather there are the verses of Jesus talking to God but since you explained it ... Jesus speaking to himself.

Isn’t the quran the word of God? Isn’t it tape recorded on a book? Does this mean their is duality in islam?

Jesus talking to the father, has an entire theology titled the hypostatic union, it's fairly simple to understand if you ever read the gospels... yet i still have my doubts if you did, so i won't bother explaining for now untill i know for sure.

Is Jesus his own Father? NO?? then there is a distinct seperation of entities.. i.e. there are atleast 2 seperate entities God and Jesus.. well that takes care of the 2 in 3=1.. are you sure you agree with this?? i.e. 2 seperate entities?

Seperated seen by human three dimensional perspective, seeing it from a divine perspective they are all one God.

H2O · Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 01:11 am Post subject:

Another long Novel written by Loki. Wow you and Liberate would make good fictional book writters.

_________________
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

H2O · Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 03:01 am Post subject:

farside · Assitant Deacon Joined: 04 Dec 2003 Posts: 71

Muhammad, The Caravan Raider

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 67, Number 402: Narrated Jabir: The Prophet sent us as an army unit of three hundred warriors under the command of Abu 'Ubaida to ambush a caravan of the Quraish. But we were struck with such severe hunger that we ate the Khabt (desert bushes), so our army was called the Army of the Khabt. Then the sea threw a huge fish called Al-'Anbar and we ate of it for half a month and rubbed our bodies with its fat till our bodies became healthy. Then Abu Ubaida took one of its ribs and fixed it over the ground and a rider passed underneath it. There was a man amongst us who slaughtered three camels when hunger became severe, and he slaughtered three more, but after that Abu 'Ubaida forbade him to do so.

Farside’s Commentary: This is Muhammad’s tenth characteristic supporting his prophethood.

Kind Regards,
Farside

Liberate · Preacher Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 200

That was a brilliant post Loki, wished I had seen it before I posted mine, it looks like certain muslims are purposely trying to be as irrational as possible.

Continuing from where I got cut off ...

alifaia · Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 02:50 am Post subject:

Hi Loki..

Stupid, like? learning false christian believes from a self proclaimed prophet six hundreds years after it happend as truth? and sticking by it, while everything proves you wrong in the face of historical, archeological and theological evidence?
no my friend... declaring it already as false closes all doors to discussion... the fact that there is a difference between Islam and Christianity regarding the divinity of Jesus is the reason i come here.. as for the factual evidence provided by christians and muslims supporting their respective claims... well... they all have enuff to support their claims.. eg.. the shruod of turin.. there are the pro people and the anti people.. both give very convincing proofs... it is up to the guy seeking to understand whats right and wats not.

your entire beliefs are based on those hadiths... the sharia law consists 90% of what is in the hadith... as are the rituals of your daily prayer included in that book? why do you use a book full of corruption? why do you let a book that slanders your prophet excist? the muslim world is eager to destroy religious books and doesn't allow western freedom philosophers to be teached... yet it's all up for naming your prophet a pedophile and rapists. as well do large muslim groups like shia's and wahhabi's take great faith in the hadiths... are they not muslims then?

how does the quran is a book that stands on it's own, when it relies for 90% on the hadith for social life... the bible has no need for apocrypha. and stands on it's own. quran without hadith, is as a car without it's engine
You seem to miss my point... hadiths science is not a black and white thingie... it isnt either all right or all wrong.. there is some truth and some falsehood... but i agree with you that if it has false hadiths.. it should be scrapped out.. i do not know why it isnt done... and to behonest with you it is these false hadiths that all non-muslim men quote to support their anti-muslim stance... even if they know that it is considered as false by the entire general muslim community... (ofcourse with a few exceptions... the radicals if i may... who refuse to accept the possibility...) but your assertion that the Quran needs the hadiths is false... without it its an engine-less car.. thats false... it is said that the book is understood by God, His Propeht and those who are knowledgable in it... the 3 category of people , we the shia know, refers to the Holy Ahlul-Bayt... the progeny of Prophet Muhammed. now i know it may seem very far fetched to you... but if one were to study its history and principles etc... one would also agree with it. (i.e. if he is unbiased)

However your 2nd claim that the Bible doesnt need the apocrypha... well.. it is still maintained by the catholic church.. the vatican library still has copies of it.. if it were non-divine ... i seriously doubt the catholic church would keep a copy... it like saying the vatican library contains a copy of The last temptation of Christ... everyone knows this book is false... even the Pope banned it.. so would he have a copy of it?? no.. the other point was the difference in content between the catholic Bible and the protestent Bible... the catholic Bible has 6 (is that number right??) extra books .. and i think its in the OT..

christians had in it's early years problems with gnostic and heretic sects... and myths that were spread around, yet unlike Bukhari we never had one man picking out and compiling what he thought was true and destroying all the others. the canon in christianity happend in agreeance with early church fathers (many people who lived in the first and second generation and heard the traditions directly from apostles or from the apostles disciples, and who could of still contradicted myths if they came into circulation) and over a period of twohundred years (not in the lifetime of one man).

Christians allready sorted out truth from error... at the very beginning. You on the other hand claims that islam teaches truth with error... concerning the hadiths. The same hadiths wich are used in sharia laws and wich define your daily prayers, etc...
which is the reason why trinitarians and unitarians still exist today... and the JW and the Mormons and the catholics and the protestents and the tv evangalists etc... all because christianity was sorted out by the early church fathers 300 years after the comming of Jesus at a council headed by a roman emperor who considered himself a god who supproted the trinitarian cause yet died a unitarian... very interesting history...

if you know wich ones are right, and wich ones are wrong, why don’t you destroy the wrong ones? Why don’t you make perfect hadiths? Instead of leaving all muslims in confusions and doubt concerning verses. And didn’t Bukhari knew what was right and wrong all along? How can the 21th century muslims have better judgement on islam then the early islam fathers?

As i have already stated... bukhari didnt check the authenticity of each and every hadith... he travelled far and wide to get them.. and compiled it. that is it.. as for why does it still exist??? well... if it were upto me i would scrap all false hadiths... but it isnt upto me...

Destroys the hadiths, they are of no need… if you only can use quotes that agree with the quran, then the hadith is of no use... everything is allready in the quran then. And everything that isn’t, isn’t islam. So basiclly your saying to use the quran only... yet then you abolish sharia law, the 5 times prayers and some other vain superstitions in islam.
plz know that not all hadiths are right and not all are wrong... there are some right and there are some wrong.. dont make it a black and white scenario..

Just because the Bible records that people lied, stole, and had numerous wives doesn't mean that God approves of such things. The Bible is an accurate record of what happened in the lives of real people. As a result, the mistakes and foolish choices of people are recorded with honesty.

Is that absurd? No, not by a long shot... what sounds more absurd for example is a prophet bargaining with Allah for daily prayers, and then Moses correcting the greatest prophet Muhammed and sending him back to Allah, because Allah’s judgement is wrong. As if Heaven is one giant bargain market. (on this hadith is what you base your 5 daily prayers)

you missed the point.. your esteemed learned brother in Christ here asserted that the Quran contained certain verses which are of no use ( the word he used was petty squabbles) and these are to be recited at all mosques... my counter was the bible too contains such incidents... which are recited / chanted / recalled at church gatherings etc... are Lots sexual encounters of any significance to the church??? if not then his very same lame argument can be applied here...

That poor excuse of a book is a miracle? By what rule? What does that book do, that no other can or did? Miracles are seen in judo-christian theology, occurences that defy the rules of nature. The quran doesn’t do this.

so according to you a miracle is something magical... like splitting up the red sea or lazarus or david copperfield snapping his fingers and making an elephant disappear... and you say that i am pathetic... i guess when the first guy who invented the cigerret lighter... people considered it a miracle as well.. wow!!! fire from the fingertips... broaden your scope of vision... and you shall see real miracles.

More then 300 prophecies about Jesus make him the most prophecied prophet to excist.
Plus Jesus wasn’t a self proclaimed prophet. Jesus was proclaimed prophet by John the Baptist who was prophecied by Malachi.
Malachi had a prophecy. John the Baptist claimed it for himself. so once again i ask who vouched for John while John was alive??? did you know that prophecies can be interpreted in many ways??? Are you aware of nostradamus?? a french or italian soothsayer... did you know that he too made many prophecies??? which are documented and you can find it at any avg. bookstore... he made prophecies that came true.. is he also a divine prophet??? Oh yea no one vouched for him... but mind you he too had quite a few true future seeings... so does he qualify??

Moses may sound like self proclaimed... yet unlike any other self proclaimed prophet, Moses could proof his divine message with great astonishing miracles. Even escaping the great Egyptian empire at old age, with slaves.
so you agree that there is a possibility of a self proclaimed prophet??? the need for vouching is ... well.. irrelevent.. right?? wel.. doesnt that just change the entire situation??? At first it was .. well.. he has to be prophecised ... someone has to vouch for him... and now it has been reduced to ok..no need for the vouching... he just has to do some great supernatural earth shaking miracle to prove himself.. what next??? no need to have any miracles as well??? this is what i have been trying to say all along... the requirements to be a prophet isnt an exacting science... not all can be categorised in the same class.. there are the prophecised one... and the self proclaimed one.. there are the miracle performers and the non miracle performers.. there are the minor one and there are the major ones... etc...

u should be used to being threatend by now if you read the quran… and how easy is it not to quote the revelations… if you follow Jesus(God), you wouldn’t have to worry about being intimitated by such in the first place. These are warnings concerning the end times, something totally else then forced commandments “give a woman 100 lashes for adulatry this punishment pleases Allah and if you don’t believe this, you’ll fry in hell”.

Isnt it said in the OT that the adultress should be stoned to death??? or did Jesus abolish that law?? when he said "he has no sin can cast the first stone" tell me is this true or not? ok how about what is the punishment for adultery??? or are you gonna say a good christian doesnt commit adultery?? which is the reason i asked liberate ... is there such a thing as a sin free reborn christian??? i assume you too are a reborn christian.. are you sin free since your re-birth? you do not need to answer this... as i am in no position to judge you.. this is a personal reflection question.. think about what i said...

Paul didn’t abolish any laws. The laws were fullfilled by Jesus, not destroyed. The laws are God’s justice system... and the sinners (wich was everyone) had to pay for our transgressions. Yet the judge himself stood up, and paid them for us instead. The law still goes. It’s not because someone payed your punishment for theft, that from now on theft is not a sin anymore
Dude... you are talking of past events only... upto the point in time when one is reborn in Christ... what about after that?? is that person sin-free?? or are his "sins" now called something else??? do you know that as per God's justice system in christianity even a minor trivial sin intentional or otherwise is an infinite sin against God??? wether reborn or not... it still is a huge deal... unless you are saying that ...well.. Jesus paid the price so the later on sins (intentional or otherwise ) will be overlooked???

God is talking in the 3d person, who is talking? Don’t you see the problem here... If the quran as claimed is every letter to be of God, then who is talking? Another example are the numerous verses in wich Allah says: “Inch Allah...”
Is muhammed talking? Then the quran is not the ultimate word of God, cause it contains words of muhammed
Is God talking? Then does God not know what he wills?
seems that you overlooked my response to Suran 17:1... plz read it..

you think it’s very social to invite someone, give him food, and then kick him out without having anything said? If people are annoying, then you don’t forbid them to be... nor should you show to be annoyed if that is the case, since he is your guest and you invited him with all his/her inperfections because you are supposed to like the person you invite!!

If their is one reason why your supponsly allah sent prophet had problems with chit chat, is probably because they discussed religion with him... muslim majorities weren’t around yet, so all people if they invited muhammed had to be pagans, jews and or christians. Surely if they discussed religion with muhammed he’d become in trouble, and be embarrased in front of his followers.... one thing to prevent this, is forbid his followers and himself to talk at meals.

dude.. all that you say is hearsay... wishful thinking.. as i already pointed out... the problem isnt with discussion... i have already stated it.. mindless vain gossip/chitchat is frowned upon... tell me would you like it if you invite your friend and he starts gossiping about other people or starts asking stupid questions??? plz re-read the verses... the stress is laid on vain talk...

Acctually Muhammed was again the only muslim who had this priviledge, if it concerns other muslims they should allow their wifes to be remarried... yet even ‘the prophets’ young wifes if they’d ever fall in love again or wished to have a family were forbidden to have one.

Ok... did any of the OT Prophets' wives remarry after they died? Moses' wife or David's or Solomon's?? or Noah or Abraham or anyoneelse??

how can the devil drive out himself? Theirs a rebutal in the gospels if you ever read this, explaining this. It’s refuted by Jesus himself.
i understand the verses you quoted... its something like satan going against satan... i.e. the divide and conquer rule employed by the western world... anyways.. my point was... if the devil can take possession of one.. cna he not leave also ??

Prophecies
- Miracles
- Exorcisms
- Ressurection

Jesus 4 – Muhammed 0

the muslims revieced prophecies from Prophet Muhammed... eg the roman-persian war... Sura 30:2-4 ... as predicted the roman won later on. despite their initial defeat...

Prophet Muhammed had split the moon in two ref : sura 54...

Certainly not in ways that are demonic, or ways that destroy the previous real word of God. Only a fool or the devil would do such.
You might want to re-think this or re-phrase it... the jews dont accept the NT coz it preaches a triune god.. they consider it to be of demonic origin. the christians like wise saythe Quran is of demonic origin mainly because just as the jews say they say the Quran corrupts the NT. So... what is there to do now??? unless there is a common established method of revelation i'd have to say your assertion is false that the mode of Islamic revelation is demonic.

It’s still his wife, and if it’s a stepfather... it’s like marrying your wife to a stranger. You’d like your wife doing that to any man who proclaims himself prophet? Well i say i speak with divine authority! Don’t ask miracles i don’t have any, just believe me or you’ll fry in hell, and give me your woman!
did you read my post or not? the question was "is a stepson / adopted son the same as biological son? plz answer this.

the trinity is the God of the judo-christian scripture, by denieing this, your denieing that you believe in the same God ! whoever Allah is, he isn’t who he claims he is to be!
Your omniscient God even got the trinity wrong in the quran, he claims we have 3 Gods, that trinity consists out of Mary, Jesus and the holy spirit... you must first begin with knowing that your Allah got trinity completly wrong in order for you to understand it.
The trinity is a simple explenation of One God manifesting himself in three ways. It’s God, the spirit of God, and the word of God. Is this such a hard theological concept for you to get? It’s not 3=1, it’s 1=1=1... simple as that. If you want to learn christianity do it in a sincere way. Ahmed Deedat ain’t gonna learn you christianity my friend.
The trinity is judeo-christian??? you sure about this??? coz i have yet to hear form a jew that he believes in trinity... unless you can bring a jew who says this.. trinity is just christian... jews and christians read the same OT .. yet both come up with different answers... one is monotheistic.. and the other claims monotheism thru trinity... as for the Mary part... are you familiar with the catholic prayer .... i cant remember it all but one line goes like this "Holy Mary mother of god.. pray for us sinners .. now and at the hour of our death"... so ?? what does this 21st century prayer say??? Mary?? is mother of God???

Or will you just discount it as heretic catholic doctrine???

Peter rebuked Jesus because he was afraid to share the same faith Jesus was getting. He was a coward in times of danger. Jesus knew this upfront, since he is God, and knows everything. Sure Peter was one of the most beloved disciples of Jesus and Peter trusted in himself that he was... yes Jesus he knew that Peter still had doubts.

maybe... but fact still stands.. Peter rebuked the son of God!!!!

- miracles
- prophecies
- agreeance with the previous covenant
- also according to OT jewish tradition a prophet needed to be accepted by the sandhredin (obviously since the jews don’t accept jesus, and as read in the gospel, jesus wasn’t accepted, on basis of false accusations, but that’s an issue with jews and not with muslims)
Miracles : Moon splitting in two and the Quran
Prophecies : Roman-persian war
Agreeance with previous covenant : completely in line with Jewish OT
as for Jewish approval... i do not think it is of any importance... as you said.. they didnt accept Jesus.. similarly you do not accept Muhammed on the basis of false accusations...

John 14:26 : Holy Spirit / comforter
I read somewhere a while back.. that the phrase The Holy Spirit was a addition... sorry i dont have the ref right now... but i'll search and post... and it was from a christian site... just incase you were going to blame some muslim or atheist...

“John the baptist was prophecied.“
He claimed a prophecy for himself

Mal 3:1 ... i understand this... but i wish to be obstinate and irrational and illogical.. as some of the members here have shown them selves to be... so.. no one vouched for John the Baptist while he was alive... did anyone hear from a 3rd person that John was the one??? without having ever heard it from John himself??? No.

Dude.. i understand almost everything you have posted to support christianity.. from a christian point of view... most of the stuff makes sense... but only because i keep an open mind to new thought and ideas... did you know that most of the stuff here is old stories to me?? i have read it all before.. and for a christian its al good.. the same goes for Islam.. but i dont know if you will understand this... so i'll just go back to my obstinate behaviour.

Did God say HE would protect the book?? if He did then the extra 6 books that the catholic church has... are they part of the real book or is the protestent version the real deal??

God say he would let the gospel(good news) be heard over the entire world...
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. -- Matthew 24:14
has he kept his promise or not?
No promise of protection .. the only alleged promise here is that it will be preached in hte world ... (and that too it was said after the death of Jesus.. Jesus himself never approached / preached to any non jew which is interesting) and the part about "and then the end will come".. end?? which end? Judgment day? end of Christianity?? or end of 600 odd years?? obscure verse.. and no promise of protection.... are you aware of the verse where the person who adds even one word will have tons of pain added and one who removes one word will hav tons of good removed... i think its in revelations... dont know the exact number... if there was a promise for protection then there will be no possibility of corruption... the validity f this verse is under question then.. why have a verse for punishment of verse changers???? if it will be divinely protected???

Acctually Paul made one of the most astonishing remarks on Islam before it came into existence.
"...if we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed... again... let him be accursed." -- Galatians 1:8-9

Actually he was speaking from experience.. ref : his vision of light or was it sound or was it both???? on the road to damascus.

Yes well many heretics were called to that nicea meeting, don’t seek to much honor in that... cause they discussed theological dispute... and those that were the most in agreeance with the early christian tradition were generally accepted. Arius wasn’t one of the people that got much agreeance with his anti-trinity beliefs and was exiled as a heretic.
which is one of the reasons why there are still unitarians today... did you know that the entire north africa part was unitarian???

Isn’t the quran the word of God? Isn’t it tape recorded on a book? Does this mean their is duality in islam?

Jesus talking to the father, has an entire theology titled the hypostatic union, it's fairly simple to understand if you ever read the gospels... yet i still have my doubts if you did, so i won't bother explaining for now untill i know for sure.

but the Quran didnt become some man-god entity. it is not a living entity. there is a difference between the Word of God changing into Jesus and teh Word of God being written down in a book....

Peace Loki...

Liberate: