Jesus Christ Forums

[Guest]

I love Jesus because he is the messenger of God came to the Jews to remind them of the truth "Who is God?" that all other prophets before him reminded there nations about; about what? About God the creator of this life and all creatures, and to teach us why God created us and how to worship him, Oh Jesus may peace be upon you, you will come again to this earth to tell the whole world that you are a human like other prophets, I love you Jesus may peace be upon you, Oh Jesus what did the Christians do after you what did they do to Arius and all truth seekers, Oh Jesus what did they say about you they said that you are God and the son of God, and I know Jesus you never said you are God, how can you say it when you are the prophet and messenger of God.

[Chrysoprasus]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
There is only one God. He made us in His image. His image is threefold, and consists of God, Jesus (the Word), and the Holy Spirit.
God alone is to be worshipped, and nobody else. Jesus allowed people to worship Him. What does this say about who Jesus is?
Either He was the greatest liar and deceiver in history or He was who He said He was. "I and my Father are one."
Chrys
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Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[webmaster]

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Seems to fit with what mona11 said huh?
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http://www.former-muslims.com

[Guest]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muslims respect and revere Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of God's prophets and messengers to humankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as "Jesus", but always adds the phrase "upon him be peace." The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth, and an entire surah (chapter) of the Qur'an is entitled "Mary." The Qur'an describes the Annunciation as follows:

(Qur'an 3:42-7) *EDITED* WRONG QURAN VERSION READ THE RULES!

(Qur'an 3:59) *EDITED*

During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. The Qur'an tells us that he said:

(Qur'an 3:49) *EDITED*

(Qur'an 3:50) *EDITED*

to know more about Jesus "upon him be peace" in islam please visit this site

Can't follow the rules, so link removed!

[webmaster]

A whole chapter devoted to Mary sounds too much like the Catholic Church to me


002.116 And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.
003.084 Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.


Your Quran tells you to quit Glorifying Jesus but using your
"upon him be peace" statement!

The Jews sought to be righteous and seek God by obeying the Law
and it was their stumbling block,
what's your stumbling block?
It seems to be the understanding of the trinity? So let's see, for you to understand the trinity you would have to have the same Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ had!



I am a Son of God! Can you make that claim?

I can for the Holy Spirit is my witness and it bears it's witness in me!

So what is the Holy Spirit then?????

Your Quran doesn't explain it to you!

Mine does!
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http://www.former-muslims.com

[Guest]

Webmaster wrote
[img]I am a Son of God! Can you make that claim? [/img]
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We cannot make that claim, because we are human, like Jesus, but the only difference is that Jesus can do miracles, but that does not proves the Jesus is the Son Of God as what He or should i say, his followers claimed him to be.
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Webmaster wrote
[img]I can for the Holy Spirit is my witness and it bears it's witness in me![/img]
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Islam do not read bibles.
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Webmaster wrote
So what is the Holy Spirit then?????

Your Quran doesn't explain it to you!

Mine does!
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Are you telling us that you have been reading the Quran? Or are you telling us that Mona11 read the wrong Quran and that u have been reading the right one? And one more thing, if you are talking that the bible explains about the Holy Spirit, but can u be sure of the truth of the bible?
If u say that the word of the bible is the word of truth, how can u be so sure of that when there are many versions of the bible have been edited? And how can u be sure that the bible your are reading now is true?[/img]

[Guest]

"Muslim Guests"

You state that muslims do not read the Bible "Islam do not read bibles" but is it not true that the qur'an exhorts muslims to read and to study the Tawrat (Torah - Law) and the Injil (Gospels)?

I should like to ask what do you believe Christianity teaches when it states that Jesus is the Son of God?

Simonline.

[5thRaven]

This is very interesting........

Ah, on set of people claim that God can take a physical form (A.K.A. Jesus) and walk the earth despite its claims of inability. God has limits, God cannot limit God's power. This is core to most Jewish based beliefs. (I am unaware of how much this has changed in Islam and would appretiate being educated.) Your Jesus could be a prophet, but he conflicts with the torah on being the son of God. This is most likely an affect of the paganization of Christianity in order to gain acceptance in th pagan world.

Another thing: VIRGIN BIRTH! is there anything more holy about this? No, it's just unnatural for mamals to do this. Mainly reptiles, are you saying Mary was a reptile? Plus, I have read very well done article that have proof that Mary being called a virgin started long after her death. I think it was a pope that first claimed this. Jesus was created in holy sex within marrage. What is wrong with that? The Midrash (stories handed down with the bible) say that sex was as normal and holy as eating, breathing, and paying homage to God. They were married.

[E.C.Everett]

Hello all,

Mona11 Wrote:

[harry1525]

My God named Jesus is real i know because in my bible it tells me all kinds of things one thing it says is the Holy Spirit is Promised to us and all God calls and the Holy Spirit is Jesus he said he would come to us as a comforter and i received him i was filled with the Holy Ghost which is a supernatural experience for sure and since i believed and received it was more than spiritual all so real and powerful. believe that or not.

[E.C.Everett]

I find it quite odd that I posted such a lengthy response to the notion that Jesus never claimed, or never was God, and not one skeptic has attempted a reply. Interesting. . .Perhaps obfuscation is a skeptic's real defense, and when challenged, the one's here (at least) have nothing to say.

My Regards, Everett
_________________
"What is wrong with the world? I am.". . .G.K.Chesterton

[Guest]

1.2.2.7 John 10:30

The third verse which Christians claim validates the doctrine of the trinity is the verse of John 10:30

"I and my father are one."


This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:


"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

John 10:23-30


In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.


Need more proof? Then read:


"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

John 17:20-22


Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"?


Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:


"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,"

1 Corinthians 6:15-17


And also

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Ephesians 4:6


And

"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

1 Corinthians 12:12-14


Once we read the above verses and understand what the message was that Paul was trying to get across, then we can begin to understand his words in such places as


"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Ephesians 4:4


"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. As we shall soon see, he was completely ignorant of where his teachings would later lead, and how decades later, they would be the foundations which would spawn the "Trinity" doctrine.

[Alpha]

Jesus is not the Father, but he is God incarnated.(I am saying this for the millionth time here). Jesus is higher than us. When we ressurect and return to earth, Jesus will be at the thrown. What seperates us from Jesus is we r sinners and Jesus never sinned. You r right, Jesus and God r One in purpose, but that does not neglect the fact that the trinity is true. When we pray, we r allowed to say in Jesus name, or in God's name just like Jesus says. But it will be blasphemy to pray in anyone elses name other than the trinity. Again, since we r allowed to worship Jesus, then this is proof that he was God in the flesh. He was the Son of Man, and Son of God. Jesus did not do things under his will, but the Father's.

[Q_B|iz]

This trinity thingy is making me confused.

OK from what i know, the Trinity is made up of

Father (God) + Jesus (Son of God) + Holy Ghost

This three equals to oneness.

According to Christians, Jesus is God. God do not have limits. If Jesus is God, then why do he have some limits and such. He has to ask permission from the Father to be able to perform a miracle.

Its llike asking yourself for power. This just doesn't make sense.

And God Incarnated? whatever dude.

[Alpha]

My friend, read Genesis 11:7 and u will understand. God says "Us" refering to the trinity. Jesus was praying to the Father to show us an example of how we as human beings should pray to the father. Jesus is used by the Father as a person we can relate to, because Jesus is also human. I know it is hard to understand logically, because we r not of God's intelligence. The only thing we can do is just accept what he says. Try not to think of it to your own understanding, but be like "the children" as Jesus says. Meaning, when God says something, it is true, no matter your understanding. When you tell a child something, he believes you and you don't need to show him or her evidence. We live through faith in God, and we should just trust what he says.

[Guest]

Hi Its Simon again (new convert to Islam)

Alpha what you have to realise is that the bible is the word of MAN inspired by god, and so could be wrong, when Jhon says the word was god, it was NOT jesus saying that, and we don't know what jesus actually said in his life, because he hasnt written it down. The men who wrote the new testament may have been at the time innaccurate, afterall, no human is perfect. It is there fore for this reason that god gave us the Qur'an to guide us. in summary just because matthew mark luke or jhon say something, doesnt mean its true so jesus may not have said the things that they say he did.

[Guest]

Oh, and why would god pray to himself to ask himself for permission to do something in his own name. It is ridiculous.

Simon.

[Josh]

And you have never in your entire life talk to yourself, what a perfect person you are!

John.11
[41] Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
[42] And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
[43] And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
[44] And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
[45] Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

only satan removes the truth of the above from your hearts as soon as the seed of the Gospel is sown, watch for it so you will start to learn of how satan removes the TRUTH!

[Guest]

I dont ask myself for things thats for sure!!! use some common sense. because jesuss is asking permission they must be two different people.

[Guest]

OK u know the reason jesus came down to earth. GODS PERFECT RULE, and his perfect principles. IF jesus was god, his rule would be void his principles would be meaningless. because a willing life was needed. Please tell me where in the bible it shows jesus talking about god as an equal, or the same person. I would love to see some evidence. BTW the KJ bible has a lot of corrupt scriptures in. You should check out teh ewn world translation. What they have done is looked at the oldest versions of the bible, (lots of differnet older versions) to see whether or not that scripture is contained. One scripture that I find amuzing is one, that says the elders of the congregation are worth double honour. But christianity changed it to double pay lol. Should you be charging people for life???

[E.C.Everett]

[Guest]

You obivously have no idea. THe WNT was translated in accordance with the dead sea scrolls etc. We are happy to prove everything form the king james version of the bible, but it is very ahrd to udnerstand. and BTW chrisitnaity has added soooo much stuff to the bible its funny. Even the symbol the cross was incorporated into the chruch when they acccepted pagans into the church. I was originally the symbol of tammuz a sun god or something. You are only citing what some1 else has told you, maybe you should do some research, youd be amazed at what you find.

[E.C.Everett]

The NWT was around 40 years BEFORE the dead sea scrolls were found. . . .ROFL.

What someone else has told me. . .that's funny. I'll be sure to tell my publishers and my Professors in college who coached me through my Doctorate. ROFL. . .

I have shown by the scriptures that Jesus is God. You use a translation that added words to deny what is clear in scriptures, and changed words that didn't coincide with Watchtower theology. JW "Theology" is the laughing stock of serious scholarship. Only the "heavens gate' cult and David Koresh rank lower on any objective scale. The New American Standard Translation uses the best extant manuscript evidences and is the far and away best English transliteration of the Scriptures. The NWT is a joke.

If you want to go round and play some real hardball using the KJV I'm game. You better pack a lunch, my friend. I've forgotten more about Biblical scholarship then you could even spell.
_________________
"What is wrong with the world? I am.". . .G.K.Chesterton

[twohumble]

Alpha says "we live by faith" and implies that faith is an emotional "giving" to a belief. However, I will remind alpha that faith is "...evidence of things unseen". We come by our faith through evidence. We are also entreated to "test all things" and not live by blind faith. In fact, Christianity is the only religion in the world that tells its followers "not to believe, just cause we say" but in fact, the bible tells us in a number of places to test all teaching. We believe in the wind, not because of blind faith, but because of the evidence for it.

Next:


The mystery of the Trinity goes beyond mere debate. It is a description of a multidemensional God, with aspects of His existence that are quite foreign to our line of thought. However, it is not so foreign that we cannot get a grasp of it, by evidence.

The Old Test repeatedly refers to God in the plural form. Jesus gives the "NAME" as a singular name when He refers to "In the name of...The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit". This is the name He gives us to call God and bless by. Is this reconsilable? Yes, I believe it is, and not by "blind" faith.

You must understand that God is not three dimensional...He resides in and controls multideminsions. His being or nature of "Three in One" is a clear doctrine in the bible...so the Paradox is resolved in the multidimensionality of God, and not in the denial of the doctrine.

EXAMPLE: Humans are 3 dimensional beings, and as such, we cannot visualize 4 physical dimensions. However, we have designed computer simulations with mathematical formulas to show that its possible to completely invaginate an orange without breaking its peel. Please try to picture that. You cannot. However, we can clearly show you how it could be done given 4 physical dimensions.

The concept of the Trinity is like that. We cannot picture the complete nature of God, however the evidence, including His incarnation, is evidence that He exists in three persons; The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This doctrine explains many aspects of our salvation, existence and Gods nature, along with His relationship to man. It is not to be taken lightly, as its a concept that a human mind cannot wrap around in three dimensional thought, but can be explained, both mathematically and philosophically in multiple dimensions. It also fits all of scriptural interpretation without conflict.

[Alpha]

[twohumble]

Alpha, tithing would never be done in the first place if the believer didn't have "evidence of the Creator"

testing refers to doctrines regarding the nature of God, the nature of man, or the nature of the relationship between God and man. All heresy distorts one or more of these three fundamental truths that are depicted in scripture.

For instance, the muslims, Jehovah witnesses, mormons, and others, deny Gods nature when they deny Christ. Yet we are told to test that doctrine. Muslims also distort Gods relationship to man, as they believe He is unknowable and beyond us. That is one of the fundamental reasons they so strongly object to Jesus as God, since in their view, God would NEVER condesend to humanity's level...and God would never "have sex".
This is the type of heresy of which I speak...its a complete lack of understanding of the truth and their need for a God that does condescend.

The consistency of their scripture is lacking in this area, fails in "the test".

You have brought up tithing, which is a bahavior of a believer once he has given his life to Christ. Its the working of the Holy Spirit within that allows a cheritable heart.

Muslims may be cheritable, but its a means to an end, they believe its "commanded" and thus necessary for salvation or to be in Gods good standing. We know that charity is not based in or need for salvation, but an offshoot of our love for the Father.

[Naaji]

Well no we dont deny gods nature actually, YOU believe we deny gods nature, and we believe you deny gods nature, only one of us can be right, and when jesus (pbuh) comes back to earth well find out the truth.

[Alpha]

When Jesus comes back on earth, let's hope after He tells the truth you would join us in eternal life.

[Naaji]

Im hoping you accept his religion and join him.

[Alpha]

Jesus' religion= Christianity(It's even named after Him for crying out loud).

[_mike_]

beg to differ there...
Christianity was the name given to that faith long after jesus was gone.
Jesus was a jew.
_________________
Jesus is the saviour of all, accept jesus as your lord and master and your live will turn more fun than you can ever imagine
http://www.cafeshops.com/CoolChristianST

[twohumble]

mike, I must disagree with you, Christianity was the term used even by Josephus primarily of those believers at the time and just following the crucifiction....it was used in a derogatory sense at that time, to refer to the followers of Christ. It later stuck as the name by which the first church was known, up until the formation of the Catholic church around 350AD. just a fyi

[Alpha]

Mike, who's side are you on here. You are not helping........LOL. I'm just joking.

[E.C.Everett]

An alert reading of the Book of Acts should suffice to convince anyone that the primitive Church (that of the Apostles and direct disciples of Jesus) attended Synagogue regularly where they preached and observed the feasts, and the Jewish Sabbath, nonetheless. Judaism was by no stretch of the imagination monolithic as it is today, and there were many diverse sects within the Judaism of the Second Temple period (Sadduccean, Pharisaical, Essenic, Zealots, Qumranic etc., and within each of those even more diverse opinions, ala Pharisaical followers of Gamaliel, Hillel, etc.).

The primitive Christians (which were first referred to as Christians at Antioch) were called the "Notzrim" within the Temple. Notzrim is the Hebrew equivalent of Nazarite (as in Samson's Nazarite vows), but because Jesus was from Nazareth, the Jews placed this title (Notzrim) on His followers as a derogatory play on the word for Nazarite. They were later called Nazarenes.

Look closely at the accounts of persecution within the Book of Acts. You will notice that the only oppositions usually came from the Sadduccees, because the Sadduccees had no belief in any resurrection as the Notzrim were preaching. The Pharisees held a doctrine of resurrection of all mankind at the end of the age, so they objected less to the Notzrim's claim that there is a resurrection, than they did to the proclamation that Jesus had been raised alone, before the expected Pharisaical resurrection. Both groups which made up the Sanhedrin (Pharisees and Sadduccees) did oppose the Notzrim's contention that Jesus was the awaited Messiah. But, this also was largely tolerated, because there were many Messianic candidates, and several favorites among both the Pharisee's and the Sadduccee's. What's one more?

They had no objections to the claims of the Notzrim that Jesus was divine, because it was commonly understood during the Second Temple period that the Messiah-King would be a Divine political liberator sent from God( see the Apochrypha, Qumran scrolls etc., although not all sects believed in every element). The Messianic titles 'Son of Man,' Son of the Most High, Son of God, Messiah-King, were commonly used for all sorts of messianic figures of the time, so they had no objections to that either. The only thing they objected to was the perception that the Notzrim were 'changing' the Torah, and (for the Sadduccees) that Jesus was raised from the dead, and for both the Pharisees and the Sadduccees that Jesus was, in fact the long awaited Messiah.

The primitive Church attended Synagogue(Temple) every Sabbath, as well as observed the various feast days. What was new was that they also incorporated Sunday (the first day of the week, or the Lord's Day) into their worship, because it was the day on which Jesus was resurrected, and the day on which He celebrated the 'Agape Meal" from the first day of His resurrection, and each Sunday until His ascension (see Luke 24:30-31; John 20:19, 26; Acts 20:7, and I Cor. 16:2). Being under Roman rule during that time, they were not allowed to observe Sunday as a day of rest, as it was a day of work within the Roman world. As long as they maintained good standing in the Temple, they were allowed to rest on Saturday, because the Romans granted certain privileges like this unto the Jews. So, the Notzrim celebrated the Eucharistic meal before work began on Sunday mornings, or after work on Sunday evenings. After the first Sunday law was passed by Constantine in 421 A.D. the Christians (as they were called regularly by that time) were allowed to worship openly on Sundays, and combine the Jewish day of rest, with the celebration of the Eucharistic meal for the first time. As the Church became less and less Jewish (after the Apostolic age) observing the Saturday Sabbath was supplanted by the Gentiles who favored Sunday (because by then, the rift between the Christians and Jews had grown quite wide, and the Notzrim were no longer welcomed in the Temple).This is when the polemics against either side began to appear in earnest, in the writings of some of the Church fathers, and also in the Talmud.

After Constantine's conversion, Sunday was made a mandatory observance for the first time. It is also interesting to note that Constantine was not responsible for the articulation of the doctrine of the Trinity as many claim. He did not import pagan, or Platonic philosophical conceptualizations into the Church. Ironically, it was those Platonic, and pagan philosophical concepts (predominately Platonic, and neo-Platonic dualism, which posits the superiority of Spirit, and the evil of flesh, and which gave rise to Gnosticism) which were the real authors of the Arianism which the Council of Nicea was called to combat. Arianists agreed with Platonic, and Gnostic categories, that God was too pure, as Divine Spirit, to ever condescend to the form of the flesh, which they viewed as inferior and inherently wicked. Therefore, in their view, Jesus was only a man, and not Divine. Athanasius answered these objections at the council of Nicea with the Athanasian, or Nicene creed. Constantine defended the heretic Arianus, but accepted the decision of the council for the sake of Christian unity. After Constantine's death, his sons divided his empire and restored Arianus, and began the persecutions of Trinitarians.

This is in direct opposition to the fantasy propogated by skeptics, Modalists, Monarchians and Gnostics that paganism is to blame for trinitarianism. It is pagan Greek philosophical concepts which gave rise to the Oneness of the Arians, Modalists, Monarchians etc., and the radical dualisms of Gnosticism, instead. The conceptualizations which were later articulated as Trinitarianism were present within Second Temple Judaism long before Jesus was even born. Philo of Alexandria, for instance referred to "Logos" as the personification of God's Wisdom (see also the Syballine Oracles, II Enoch etc.) along the lines of Alexandrian, Aritotelian Word/Logos conceptualizations, which John later revised with his usage of "Logos" becoming flesh (John 1:14) which is unthinkable to the Aristotelian/Platonic dualisms which later gave rise to Arianism, Gnosticism etc.

There is a long Jewish tradition of ascribing Divinity to aspects of God's Person, including God's Widom, and His Word (Memra, in Aramaic Targumim). The Jews viewed God's spoken Word as God Himself, having been released from the mouth of God, and filling all things in the universe.

This is continued in the writings of John and Paul in the New Testament, which is why the Sanhedrin of the primitive Church era had no objections to the Notzrim claim of Divinity for Jesus Christ.

Well. . .that's a lot to digest, so I'll stop for now. Feel free to ask any questions or correct me if you find a mistake somewhere. I tend to write in a rush of thought, so I may have left something out, or confused a couple of things.

My best,

Everett
_________________
"What is wrong with the world? I am.". . .G.K.Chesterton

[twohumble]

E.C

Not sure what prompted your explanation, but it was GREAT...thanks for the info.

[Guest]

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy Trinity." However, the very ible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim.
We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:


God is All Knowing... Jesus was not

When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the father." (Mark 13:32, and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.


God is All-Powerful... Jesus was not

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.


God does not have a God ?

God does not have a God....But Jesus did have a God. God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.


God is Invisible

According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit.... But Jesus was flesh and blood. While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:1 "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.


No one is Greater than GOD

No one is greater than God and no one can direct him....But Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own. Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.


Conclusion on Jesus

The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity. If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

[Alpha]

[twohumble]

Alpha, we must be careful in discussing "the Fathers superiority over the Son". Although scripture clearly indicates this, we must take into account the ENTIRE scripture and nature of God.

1. Jesus willingly submits to the Father, and voluntarily takes on human form. Scripiture would also indicate that Christ resides at the right hand of the Father in glorified human form.

2. Willing submission in NO WAY implies inferiority in the nature of The Father vs the Son. Just as a wife is equal to the husband, she willingly submits (if she is a good Chrisian wife) Muslims have a real hard time with this concept since submission relates to someone or thing that is lessor to the one they submit too.

3. In the Godhead we see Christ as the Fathers equal, but willingly takes on an inferior role, to do the Fathers will. It is important to distiguish a willing and purposeful shedding of authority and power vs. lessor or inferior in nature. Jesus in NOT inferior in any way to the Father, except by His choice of submission. All the passages that our Muslim friend quoted must be understood in the nature and context of true scripture, which of course, the Muslims are not open too.

[twohumble]

Olive, refer to the following link for a better understanding of the passages which you have misused in your earlier message.

www.seekgod.org/bible/jesusisgod.html

[Humvee]

Jesus(pbuh) said he was not GOD! (Mark 10:1 "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
In other words! "I don't deserve to be called good! Only GOD is good"

Also in (Luke 22:42) “Father, If thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done.”


Some one said here that "GOD can do anything" That's not true!

Can GOD die?
Can GOD lie?
Can GOD do evil?
Can GOD sin?
Does GOD need rest?
Can GOD think? or does he know?
Can GOD repent?

Why does (Exodus 32:14) say "And the Lord repented for the evil in which he thought to do onto his people"

GOD can do anything except the "UNGODLY" Things that would make him less than he is! GOD is the begining and the end! GOD doesn't have a mother!

If Jesus wasn't just a prophet then who was GOD talking about in Deuteronomy 18:18?
All the prophets in history had 1 message! "Worship the 1 true GOD!"

GOD said in (Isaiah 43:10) before me there was no GOD formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:11) “I am the Lord your GOD and besides me there is no saviour.

You think that because Jesus had miracles he was GOD? Then I guess Moses was GOD also right? Think people!!
I have way too much information for this forumn!
The Devil comes with whatever tricks he can to get you into the hellfire!
His favorite one is "Call Jesus GOD and be Saved" Saved from heaven because that's breaking the first commandment! You will be called least in the kingdom of heaven!

The "BIBLE" is Flawed by errors in translation which doesn't allow it's words to be valid! Plus it wasn't written by Jesus who was the one enlightened by GOD. Not one word of it!!

What Errors?

John 3:16 vs Psalms 2:7 (Only begotten son?)
II Kings 19 vs Isaiah 37 (100% Plagiarism)
II Samuel 24 vs I Chronicles 21 (Was it GOD? Or was it the Devil?)
II Samuel 24:13 vs I Chronicles 21:11 (Was it 3 years or 7?)
I Kings 7:26 vs II Chronicles 4 (Was it 2,000 baths or 3,000?)
II Chronicles 9 vs I Kings 4:26 (Was it 4,000 or 40,000)
II Samuel 10:18 vs I Chronicles 19 (was it 700 and horses, or 7000 and footmen?)
Wouldn't GOD's word be perfect and flawless? Wouldn't GOD's rules be perfectly understandable and unchangeable? Well GOD's word is! The Quran! Perfect, unchangeable, and complete!!

The Bible was written in Hebrew, Translated into Arabic, then to Greek, then to Roman. There is no accurate way to translate an entire bible and have the meaning exactly the same! That's like playing telephone. it changes a little bit everytime. That's why in 20 different bibles the same verse will say something different to mean the same thing! Every translation allows room for new perceptions thus creating a new division of a religion!
For example:
The first Bible quite possibly could have said "Unto you a child shall be born and he will be the creation of GOD."
Then in the translation into Arabic some unknown unqualified translator could have used his limited brain and decided that:
Hmmmm GOD made us in his image, so our creations are children, I'll translate "Creation of GOD" into "Son of GOD"
Think about it! How can GOD almighty have a child?
You expect me to believe that GOD had a child which was himself. And was born but doesn't have a mother and prayed to himself asking himself for guidance and giving himself advice at the same time, fighting and being tempted by a devil which he created. Think! Think! Think!

Just because Jesus was born of a virgin it doesn't make him GOD!
Adam was made without a mother or father! Does that make Adam beter than Jesus? Godlier than Jesus?

A man asked Jesus "What is the first of all commandments?"
Jesus replied (Mark 12:2 “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel, the lord our GOD is ONE Lord.”

Then he said: (Mathew 5:17-20) “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them……………… Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

If you Preach "Trinity" Then you are relaxing what Jesus stated is the "First and Most Important Comandment" The LORD thy GOD is ONE LORD!!
_________________
Isaiah 43:10-11

[Omega]

Humvee wrote:

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

[Seulangel]

Luke 23:33-35 from the NIV Bible:

Luke 23

33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left.
34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." [1] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."

If Jesus is truely God, then why did he ask God for forgiveness? Why didn't he just forgive him himself?

[Believer]

If Jesus is truely God, then why did he ask God for forgiveness? Why didn't he just forgive him himself?

Jesus prayed for the people because He loved them.
He asked the Father to forgive them to show He cared about them.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[Omega]

Hello again seulangle!

[Alpha]

Also, let's not forget that Jesus humbled Himself.

Philippians 2:5-8- Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[Omega]

This has been discussed before, But also needs to be mentioned again to some people. God is Spirit, how can you communicate with a Spirit? God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. He has no bodily appearance, How can you know someone with no bodily form?

You will know Him by His Word, If your best friend talks to you by phone, you know it is him because you recognise him by his words and not because you can see him because you cannot see him directly.

Jesus said:Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The two accomplices of the Devil both have the same power{authority} which stems from Satan himself!

It is written:Revelation 13:12 - And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


He is speaking with the words of Satan himself!

Jesus has all authority of God Almighty{Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.}

As the Father had sent Him he sends his disciples because of His authority and not because The Father told Him to.John 5:22 - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

The Word of God says:Zechariah 14:9 - And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14


Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

A FALSE Messiah will arise who will cause the whole world to worship him, and they will believe that this messiah is{God}

And they that worship him{mostly the whole world} will all fall on their faces in reverence believing he is God.

Who desires to achieve the status of the True God?
Who caused a great multitide of angels to worship him?
Who desires to have the whole world to worship him?
Who is the god of this world?
Who opposes Christ?
Who is responsible for the persecution of Christians?
Who attempts to belittle the role of Christ and his role as God? that blasphemes His name by putting himself above the authority of Christ claiming that he himself is God and that there is no other?
Hasatan!


Revelation 12:13 - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


Without the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son dwelling in you, all will be deceived!

[Omega]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[Humvee]

When GOD Almighty was speaking to Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18 Whom was he speaking about?

He clearly explains what will happen!

"I will raise up for them a PROPHET like you from among their brethren; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."

If GOD Almighty was refering to Jesus (pbuh) then he clearly said he would be a prophet. It even explains your reason for believing in the trinity "The word and GOD are one" For GOD said "I will put my words in his mouth"

HOWEVER

Jesus and Muhammad were the only two "well known" prophets after Moses. GOD said "A prophet like you"
Moses had a mother and a Father, Jesus had a mother.
Moses had more than one wife, Jesus was selebut.
Moses said he was a prophet of GOD, Jesus preached GOD
Moses Preached and told people GOD was one.

But the way... Which verse of the bible did you get the word Trinity from? I can't seem to find it.

And as for you Mr. Name calling "Believer" I am ignorant? Even when I was a Christian, before learning the truth. I didn't call people names!

The bible is very accurate work? You haven't yet read and answered my comparisons!!

John 3:16 vs Psalms 2:7 (Only begotten son?)
II Kings 19 vs Isaiah 37 (100% Plagiarism)
II Samuel 24 vs I Chronicles 21 (Was it GOD? Or was it the Devil?)
II Samuel 24:13 vs I Chronicles 21:11 (Was it 3 years or 7?)
I Kings 7:26 vs II Chronicles 4 (Was it 2,000 baths or 3,000?)
II Chronicles 9 vs I Kings 4:26 (Was it 4,000 or 40,000)
II Samuel 10:18 vs I Chronicles 19 (was it 700 and horses, or 7000 and footmen?)


Define Accurate?
_________________
Isaiah 43:10-11

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

[Humvee]

[Believer]

[jn0125]

I believe in jesus and all, but I don't believe he is God. Would god make a rock to heavy for him to cary?? NO because then he wouldnt be God. Can God feel pain or die? No because then he wouldnt god. Jesus is not god because he felt pain and died. God would not lower himself to that level. God sends messangers to do his bidding and jesus is one of them. In many parts of the bible people call god father. The bible has undergone many changes since it was translated from the greek language many years ago. No bible to date is exactly right. This is a minsconception amongst many christians. I just don't believe in jesus as our lord. I thank him for what he has told us but i don't believe he is god.

[Believer]

Peace jn0125

Jesus possessed two natures.
He was fully divine since He God, and He was fully human.
Jesus needed to eat, drink, sleep, among other things or He wouldn't of been human.
I know it sounds impossible, but understand that nothing is impossible to God.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[jn0125]

Believer,
I have recently thought of converting to Islam. Do you really know how similar islam is to christianity. Did you know people of islam believe in the bible. They just don't believe in the one that exists now(the one that has has been butcherd over time). Islam advocates believing in one almighty god. Just ONE. They don't believe in the holy spirit or the son. Its just one being nothing else. Islam is a interesting religion and i don't believe it tells lies. Just like humbvee said we do belive on the same god we just call him by a diffrent name.

[jn0125]

Believer,
I have recently thought of converting to Islam. Do you really know how similar islam is to christianity. Did you know people of islam believe in the bible. They just don't believe in the one that exists now(the one that has has been butcherd over time). Islam advocates believing in one almighty god. Just ONE. They don't believe in the holy spirit or the son. Its just one being nothing else. Islam is a interesting religion and I don't believe it tells lies. Just like humbvee said people of Islam do belive in the same god they just call him by a diffrent name.

[Believer]

Peace jn0125,

You won't believe in the God of Israel if you become Islamic.
The God of Israel would NEVEr break His covenant with the Israel for an Ishmaelite.
Rather, God fulfilled His covenant through Jesus Christ.
The Prophecies tell us this.

Isaiah 49
5 And now the LORD says-
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength-
6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

7 This is what the LORD says-
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
"Kings will see you and rise up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the LORD , who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."

God now offers salvation to all people and invites them into His New Covenant through Jesus Christ.

In Islam teh Holy Spirit of the LORD is an angel.
We believe He IS God based on the Bible:

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [1] man forever, for he is mortal [2] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
-Genesis 6:4

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.
-Numbers 11:25

But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"
-Numbers 11:29

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.
-Judges 11:29

The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.
-Judges 14:6

The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.
-I Samuel 10:6

2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
-Acts 2:2-4

Obviously, the Spirit of the Lord is the Lord manifested as the Spirit, and not some angel.
There's the Holy Spirit.


Islam tells lies because it denies Jesus as the Lord and Saviour, the Holy One of Israel who ussured in God's New Covenant to offer salvation to all people.
Islam lies about the Holy Spirit, among many other things.
The purpose of that faith is to keep you away from Christainity.

We also believe in ONE God, and He is purely heavenly, immanent with us in Spirit, and able to walk among us as a men.
This is the Father, Spirit, and the Son.


If you choose to become a Muslim than you would have rejected the God of the Bible, so you reject God for another god; the god of the Quran who is obviously different from the God of the Bible.

You cannot have a personal relationship with God as in Christianity.
You won't be assured full salvation in Islam, like you are in Christianity.
Among other things too, but your religion is your choice.
May God bless you and help you find your life religion.
It's a big decision that will determine where you will end up after you doe, so choose wisely.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[Omega]

It is written:Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. Nehemiah 9:6 OT

It is written:Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 13-17 NT

Fear not; I am the first and the last: (1 I {am} he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. REVELATION 1:17-18

And it shall come to pass, {that} whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.JOEL 2:32

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13

Hebrews 13:8 " Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever.

God alone does not change, and as you can see in the scriptures that Jesus does not change either.

Also:But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:3,4

Peter had told ananias that he had lied to the Holy Ghost, furthermore Peter had said to him, that ananiaas had not lied to men but God, clearly showing that the Holy Ghost is God also.


It is written:He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. John 21:17


Petrer replied,"Thou knowest ALL things" how can anyone know all things?
Only God is omniscient, therefore making Jesus God!

Why didn't God send others to die for the sins of the world? what about Michael,Gabriel, and other angels?

Jesus Christ was sent because HE is perfect, what if one of the angels became man as God became man, do you really believe that the angel could accomplish what Jesus did? I think not!!!

That is why Jesus had to die for the sins for the world because He is perfect even as man, for if an angel became man, He would not probably get past the temptation of Satan, because Satan is Spirit and he is man{Flesh}

It is written:Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. Matthew 26:41

That is why He is worthy of worship, as it is also written:And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Revelation 4:11

You cannot worship two Gods as it is written:Again making Jesus God.


Time is running out, and the False messiah will arrive secretly from??? claiming that he is God,and all who have not Christ in their heart and are not saved by His purifying precious blood will worship this False messiah as God{Allah}

Furthermore The false messiah will attempt to replicate the resurrection of Christ as it is written:Revelation 13:3 - And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Wait til the inhabitants of the earth see this!!!

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Revelation 12:12

God Bless!

[TruthSeeker1]

Peace All,

[Believer]

Peace Truthseeker,

I answered your question already.
God's New Covenant WAS for everyone including Ishmaelites, but the Old Covenant of God was with Israel.
Don't ask me why; God does what He wishes.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[Humvee]

Bismillah

Keep typing Believer! I love all the PMs I'm receiving from people wanting more information about Islam and direction with how to return to, how was it put? "The True will of GOD." Truly Ramadan is a blessed month! )

Much like myself when I was Christian, I realized I was only born into the faith and didn't know anything else. However like Moses (Musa) May Allah be pleased with him, the truth about the "One True GOD" was too obvious for me to continue in those footsteps!

Matthew 6:33
Seek First the Kingdom of Heaven

How do you do this? By keeping the commandments!

Matthew 5:17-20
Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

Be sure of your teachings "Believer" Be very sure!!! For you will be held accountable for not only your own mis-guidance, but all that you wrongfully inform!


Qu'ran 39:36-37
Whom-so-ever Allah guides, no one can lead astray,
And whom-so-ever Allah leaves astray, no one can guide.

All correct and accurate information written here is from Allah t'ala.
And any errors in my writing are from me. Astagfru-Allah (I humbly repent)
_________________
Isaiah 43:10-11

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

Well, I bet your getting some pm's, but they're not "Hey, I wanna be a Muslim" pm's, but rather "Humvee, is Believer right? Is this true? How CAN you justify Islam?"

[Omega]

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.1 Corinthians 13:1-8

And Jesus said that ye shall know men by their fruits. As it is written:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

And Jesus said unto Peter: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:27-33

Greater Love hath no man than he that lay dowm his life for his friends. Our God teaches to love our neighbours as ourselves, which is clearly taught from God Himself, and not only that but to Love our enemies


And Jesus said unto Peter:Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. John 13:19-21

The greater Love which is taught by the God of the Bible clearly sends the MESSAGE that love not only conquers all but reveals the truth of all truths of the TRUE GOD.

1 Corinthians 16:22 - If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

God Bless!

[Omega]

Isaiah 48:16: "I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

[Humvee]

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

[gif]

hi believer! iam new here and i dunno know if jesus is god or alah is god?

every1 is against each other, god told me the truth is here!


_________________
i know

[Believer]

God bless you, Gif!
Welcome, feel free to ask any of us here your questions.
I pray you'll find the right path in God.
Your heart will tell you if you're on the right track, just have faith that God will lead you into His Truth.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[gif]

hi believer thanx for replying
can i ask u how do i have faith in god because i am not really sure wh god is, i jus know that i heard him say that i wiill find him.


_________________
i know

[gif]

iam sorry for asking 2 many questions and i cant spell 2 well, but is jesus alah?

_________________
i know

[Believer]

Peace gif,

[gif]

thanx believer for that issurance i will do that if am not banned from here. they think that iam rude.
_________________
i know

[Humvee]

Peace Believer,

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

[Humvee]

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Believer,

[Alexei]

If Jesus is God then:

Jesus was the one who killed the people of Samaria and ripped open pregnant women and slaughtered the children [Hosea 13:16]

Jesus was the one who killed the Amalekites and he didin't spare them putting to death every man, woman, and children, cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys [1 Samuel 15:3]

Jesus was the one who destroy Sodom and Gomorrah by raining down sulfur [Genesis 19:24]

Jesus was the one who killed 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people [1 Chronicles 21]

Jesus was the one who ordered the killing of all the innocent men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value [Deuteronomy 3]

Jesus was the one who murdered of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married [Judges 21]

In total Jesus killed 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

And we still have some stooges who still claiming that Jesus is the King of peace and love and mercy and and and....

Hitler would look like an innocent lamb in front of the Biblical Jesus

Biblical Jesus=


Alexei

[Believer]

Peace Alexei,

[TruthSeeker1]

Peace Believer!

Believer u are being hypocritical, You are accussing muslims of Paganism, yet u yourself have images of Supposedly "Jesus" and Mary and the saints etc. and dont tell me u only use them to remind u of Jesus or Mary etc.. coz i already proved to u that as a catholic u r supposed to venerate images of Jesus and mary and the cross too!!

I know the muslims do not worship the stone, but i am curious as to why they go around it seven times in an anti-clockwise direstion??

The Head of your Catholic Church the Pope is a marian worshipper, he does the opposite of what is in the Bible!!!

U yourself quoted from the Bible

[Believer]

Peace truthseeker1,

I don't personally revere any images, or statues.
I do have some crucifixes, but I don't revere them, they're just objects crafted from our hands. They do remind me of important religious incidents.
I keep them only to look at occasionally to remind me of Jesus and His sacrifice for me, and the lives of the saints.
I wouldn't consider this idolatry, but if I started worshipping these things, now that would be quite sinful.
And if the pope worships Mary, God bless him, but he isn't in his right mind--literally.
Personally, I'm not aware of any Catholics that really revere these images, but if there are any, they're pushing it some.

The Muslims' Kaabah once housed pagan idols, and they still revere the Black Stone that the pagans worshipped.
This is a very very different situation, okay.
Pagan things should be destroyed, God made this clear.
I don't keep pagan things in my house.

And we shouldn't make images of the Father, but we can of the Son .
God revealed Himself to us as Jesus Christ, and He is the living image of God.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[Alexei]

Well I am just wondering if any Christian has read his Holy Bible from cover to cover before posting his ignorance about Islam??

Believer wrote:

[Believer]

Peace Alexei,

The Kaabah wasn't built by Abaraham, and the Black Stone was not erected by him. That was always pagan, and it should have been destroyed. The Kaabah should have been burned.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[Humvee]

[webmaster]

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

[Humvee]

[Alexei]

[Believer]

Peace Humvee,

[Omega]

The topic of this thread is,"IS JESUS REALLY GOD?"


Alexei wrote:

[Omega]

Furthermore Those verses show that Jesus also greater than Muhammad, Jesus is the Saviour of mankind and He died on THE CROSS to pay the full penalty if sin so that all who call receive him shall be saved!


Can Muhammad cleanse you from your sins? As all true believers know that without the shedding of blood on the cross there is no remission of sins, bottom line.

And if it were not true then Christ died in vain!

[TruthSeeker1]

Peace Believer!

[Alexei]

[Believer]

Peace Alexei,

[Omega]

The Father glorifies the Son and the Son glorifies the Father through the Holy Spirit so GOD is glorifed all in all.





God Bless!

[Alpha]

Alexei, you have to remember that Jesus humbled Himself. He could have easily destroyed those people who were throwing stones at Him, and he could have easily said boldly that He is divine. But what does Phillipians 2:5-8 say? Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now, your copout is going to be that Paul's teachings are corrupt. But Paul's teahings came before Muhammed's. God's true revelation comes before any other false revelations.

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Truthseeker,

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers
_________________
This nation will get sick but it will never die and will doze but never sleep so do not lose your hope. You will return your glory.

[Alexei]

[Alpha]

[Believer]

Peace Truthseeker1,

[TruthSeeker1]

Peace Believer!

[Believer]

Peace Truthseeker1,

[Alexei]

In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read:

"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

But what is a messenger of God? Is he not "God's supreme agent" ?This is indeed what God Himself has already told us in the noble Qur'an 1400 years ago!!!


Alexei

[Believer]

Peace Alexei,

[Omega]

[kyas]

I thaught this discussion is only about quran and bible... why go beyond that?

[Believer]

[Alexei]

[Believer]

[TruthSeeker1]

Peace Believer!

[Believer]

Peace Truthseeker1,

[BryanX]

[BryanX]

[Believer]

BryanX, I have crucifixes and a big painting of Jesus I made myself (look's like a cartoon Jesus! ), but these remind me of Jesus and what He did for men. That is all. That's the purpse they serve. Why is this so unacceptable? I don't even pray to these, they only trigger a mental response to acknlowledge Christ as my Lord and Savior and say a prayer.
_________________
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

[BryanX]

[BryanX]

By the way, you missed answering my last question. Here it is again:

[Kaf.heh.yeh.3yn.sad]

In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

Salam

Alexel you said (In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read:

"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'" )

Mr Alexel i want to CONGRATULATE you for this article it was really so intersting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as a reply for Mr Dragon Mr Believer when he said (they only trigger a mental response to acknlowledge Christ as my Lord and Savior) as a reply for it i found also an Article for Mr GEORGE BERNARD SHAW and he is talking about the SAVIOR OF THE HUMANITY and he said :

'' Medieval ecclesiastics ,either through ignorance or bigotry, painted Muhammadanism in the darkest colors.They were, In fact TRAIND to hate both the man Muhammad and his religion.,To them,Muhamed was ANTI CRIST. I have STUDIED him ,THE WONDERFUL MAN,and in my opinion,FAR from being an anti-Christ,,,,,,HE MUST BE CALLED THE SAVIOR OF HUMANITY, HE MUST BE CALLED THE SAVIOR OF HUMANITY."G.B.Shaw.
Token From Ibid.
_________________
User banned for trolling.
adelrabia1@hotmail.com

[BryanX]

I forgot to acknowledge the [real] topic of this thread.

No, I do not believe that Christ is God.

[Believer]

Hey BryanX, what is your religion?
Are you a Muslim or a JW?

[BryanX]

[webmaster]

And this topic should be done here

The Christians Debate Forum
The Christians Debate Forum Registered Users Only
Moderators webmaster, Aineo, Alpha
http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewforum.php?f=115


Not in the Quran and Bible Debate, BryanX.

[BryanX]

No more replies?

Ok then, back on [the real] topic!

[BryanX]

[Aineo]

[Almonte]

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form hotheos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form tontheos, which means ‘a god’. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Therefore, if the Word was a ‘god’ in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one. However, in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4, “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.” Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1, “And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”



The big game in the Bible



The Word was God”, which mean a god in Greek word is tontheos, they put a
Capital G


”In 2nd Corinthians 4:4, Paul referred to the devil as God “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers

The word God in Greek is hotheos means The God they put a small g


What games are you Christians playing in your bible?

In john 1:1 the word was God (tontheos) should be a small g but it was Jesus lets play with the bible


”In 2nd Corinthians 4:4 should be a capital G because the word in Greek is hotheos which means the God


There’s no such thing in Greek a capital letteror small letter

There’s no such thing in Hebrew a capital letter or small letter


There’s no such thing in Arabic a capital letter or small letter


No sound mind could believe in such falsehood and utter nonsense, that the bible is the word of God
_________________

[Omega]

Almonte, is that the best you can come up with?
That has already been discussed by REDX in another forum!
Furthermore, you might want to cite your resources before pasting them.

[Alpha]

Actually, I'm looking at the Greek right now and "Theos" is used in both instances in John 1 indicating the deity of Christ. But when reading things, you must read them in their context. You can easily discern the difference between "gods" and "God" just from reading the context. And in context, Christ is God in the flesh. For example, in John 1, when it says "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God" does that sound like it is referring to "gods" ? Keep in mind that it says "In the beginning". How can "a god" exist with "the God" in the beginning, when "the God" is a jealous God? Therefore, Christ is not referred to as a god, but the God, because the God was the only God from the beginning. Muslims like you strive at a gnat but swallow a camel. You look for instances to deceive people by playing word games, when you should be reading things in their context to get the real meaning. "Hypocrites, blind guides!" You follow a religion that claims God edits His word, when you fully know that God does not edit, but prophecies and forewarns like the forewarning of if even an angel or man was to preach a different gospel, let him be accursed. Then 500 years later the "angel Gabriel" tells Muhammed about Islam. "Hypocrites, blind guides!" Your religion tells you that Christ was not crucified without providing evidence. Is God capricious? I think not. The overwhelming evidence shows that Christ was crucified, but then you say someone who looked like Christ was crucified. So I guess it is God who has deceived? "Hypocrites, blind guides!"

[BryanX]

Hell, I don't even know where to start with this one. I don't know whether to argue/debate with this Almonte guy or the other members involved in this discussion.

In response to your post, Almonte, you almost had it right. Unfortunately, 99% of the rest of your post is completely full of rubbish. The only reason why you believe the Bible to be nonsense is because you do not understand it very well. You "THINK" you understand it. Well, I have news for you---you're misunderstood. Infact, you're not even half way there yet. You have to understand that everything written in the Bible is a mystery. It's not that easy to understand, I'll tell you that right now.

I have an article that discusses about John 1:1. It's pretty lengthy. After reading it, it will boggle your Islam mind, Almonte. Care for me to send it to you?

[gerani1248]

jesus is not God, hes the son of God.
many of you may disagree, but i have hindu views on everything. I believe that everyone, prophet or sinner has an amount of God in them. God is universal and exists in everything always in time. so jesus could have been 'in tune' with God and chose by God's will to reveal His Word to the people of that time. hes just holy.

[Alpha]

[gerani1248]

[Omega]

[illyric0]

Hasn't it always been wrong to worship the creation...
_________________



"If I should say,'My foot has slipped,' Your lovingkindness, O LORD, will hold me up. When my anxious thoughts multiply within me, Your consolations delight my soul." -- Psalm 94:18
and 19


[img]http://forums.genvibe.com/zeroavatar/570[/img]

[Omega]

[Alpha]

[gerani1248]

[Alpha]