Jesus Christ Forums

[Guest]

en)... what will keep it from being made legal again?

[Chrysoprasus]

What are your thoughts on that?
Chrys
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Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[webmaster]

Well Amen to that. It's about time that they stopped it! Abortion is sad!
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http://www.former-muslims.com

[Guest]

I'm pro-choice. But if you anti-choicers get your way, what will keep abortion from being made legal again in 3 years? Abortion is not sad. It is necessary for a modern society. We cannot let the right wing bully us into their morality.

[webmaster]

[Chrysoprasus]

Yeah, screw morality! While we're at it why not kill off the elderly in nursing homes? They're costly.
So are the prisoners, and they've already proved they're not beneficial to society.
Down with morality, kill 'em all!
Chrys
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Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[Guest]

[Guest]

[Daredevil]

Of course NPA you win whether abortion becomes legal or not. There will always be abortions because there is evil (disregard of life) in this world. As if you can make that up be appearing more moral in other issues, like opposing the death penalty.

[Doormouse]

Have any of you stopped to contemplate as to why medically assisted abortions must be legal? This is not a question of whether or not there will be abortions in practice, this is a choice between clean and safe abortions and abortions that require procedures such as erecting a coat hanger wire and protruding it into the womb, resulting in permanent damage and most often the death of the child-bearer, undergoing pregnancy and birth and disposing of the infant in a trash can, or much worse. Even if your pretentious preaching of "morality" is all in fact meritable, the truth of the matter remains that coat hangers, nails, and mutilated infants will cause far more death, injury, and psychological trauma than legalized abortions.

What would keep abortion from being legalized if it were prohibited? Nothing short of a fascist and irrational government would do the trick.
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Four legs good, two legs bad.

[Chrysoprasus]

There are some situations where abortion is necessary, so banning ALL abortions isn't the answer.
However, the reasoning shouldn't be it needs to remain legal so people wouldn't illegally do it, or why not make drugs legal too?
There's instances in both cases where it may be necessary, but in neither case should either be legalized for all.
Chrys
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Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[Guest]

I MUST stick a coat-hanger in myself. I MUST throw the baby off a hill. I MUST even risk death to hide the fact that I'm pregnant. Why? I don't know. The devil made me do it I guess.

[Guest]

I am being avoided, as usual.

[Not PA]

Why does this board give me the impression that it is a breeding ground for abortion clinic bombers? You guys certainly have given it the appearance of such a place.

[Daredevil]

Not President Andrew:
Hitler, clinic bomber, whatever. Those are the real ones who are "avoiding your point". Take a break from mouthing off and try to figure out what other people are saying.

[Chrysoprasus]

npa, I do not endorse clinic bombers, and this is not a breeding place for clinic bombers. We don't commit wrong to fix wrong.
As far as WHY it reminds you of that, perhaps it's because you seem incapable of understanding the views of anyone but yourself. Start listening instead of priding yourself in your ability to slam others and you may be suprised at what you hear.
Any other questions?
Chrys
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Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[LindaBee2]

[LindaBee2]

[Boiler Bro Joe]

Not withstanding the issue of whether illegalizing abortions will cause more dirty unsafe abortions, the argument that the right wingers are imposing morality on you doesn't make sense. Are you saying it's not right for the government to impose morality on serial killers who believe they are serving God through mass murder? It may be hard for us to determine what is "right" and "wrong" since so many cultures have so many perceptions of it. But we can say with some conviction what is harmful and what is not. The government makes murder illegal when it is harmful to society (that's why self-defense isn't illegal) and no one argues with that. So then, the issue is whether or not abortions are similar to murder.

Pro-choicers argue that a fetus is an extension of a woman's body and not a living being. Therefore, abortion is exactly what it sounds like: "cancelling" a pregnancy, nothing more. A woman therefore has the right to make the choice of giving birth or not. Pro-lifers argue that a fetus is a living entity as soon as it is conceived and it is not the woman's choice whether or not to kill it. Clearly if one believes a fetus to be alive, this makes perfect sense. Otherwise, that would mean it's okay for a mother to kill her six year old son, because he's a burden to her. (Ever see that episode of South Park where Cartman's mom wanted to abort him?) So we can now narrow down the argument to "is a pre-born baby alive or simply part of the mother?" Because if it is alive, then abortion would be no more moral than murder.

Now here's my opinion on it. It is very difficult to determine exactly when a pre-born child becomes human. Most people would agree that one minute before birth, a baby is as human as it's going to get, because if it were born premature, it would be able to live unassisted. However, a zygote, immediately after conception is no more advanced than the skin cells of our arm, which we kill every day when we take a shower or scratch ourselves. So we can't ever say for sure that a pre-born baby is alive, and we can't ever say for sure that it's not. Therefore, I chose to look at it more as a potential for life. As soon as a child is conceived it WILL become a living breathing human being provided that there is no interference. That potential for life does not exist in the same way before conception, because the act of sex still has to occur. Thus, is it the mother's right to eliminate the potential for life? My belief is not, it is not. That potential for life does not belong to the mother but rather to the future child, the enitity that will exist once it is born. Whether or not you feel that the fetus is alive at the time of it's abortion doesn't matter. Because from conception to birth that unborn child has that same unchanging potential for future life.

That is why I believe abortions are wrong. I want to point out that I am not religious, nor am I a conservative. I'm very liberal and I am pretty much an agnostic. However I made this conlusion simply by thinking it through logically, whithout the assistance of politics or religion. So when might abortion be okay? If the unborn child has no potential for a real life, meaning it will be born and live painfully for a few days, then abortion is not eliminating any potential there. I also believe abortion is okay if the mother will die by giving birth, because she has a right to chose if she lives or not. That situation is similar to self defense, where killing someone is necessary to save your own life. However, if the life of the mother is not threatened and the child has the potential to live a normal life, I feel abortion is morally wrong.

[webmaster]

[Guest]

Well thank you.

[LindaBee2]

[Boiler Bro Joe]

[5thRaven]

One thing that many people miss is that morals have NOTHING to do with United States law. All United States criminal law is based on NOT limiting peoples freedoms, the rest is based on the economy. All things that should be illegal should be illegal because they limit the freedom of another human being. In the case of a serial killer or a rapist, the criminals cause harm or kill people and remove their freedom to act in those situations more than the victims inhibit the freedom of the criminal. Therefore the government has to step in and balance them out again by exacting justice.

In the case of abortion I see an arguement in both directions. On one hand, there is a creature that is fast becoming a human, hence the law that no baby past the 2nd trimester may be aborted in common abortion law. Then you get into the arguement, when is the baby alive? We cannot very well make menstruation, any form of sex, or masturbation a sin on the grounds that your "wasting" potential human life. Sperm inside a males body is continually killed and is replaced by new sperm. Masturbating does not decrease fertillity.

Another thing to remeber is that nobody wants an abortion, period. They just cannot afford to keep the child. It is always a painful experience to abort a child. Even rape victims often have misgivings about aborting their child because it is still their child. The best solution: ORAL CONTRACEPTIVES.

Those little pills, while they do not cause abortion hence they are not 100% effective, all women to be protected all month long. As stated by planned parenthood, an organization dedicated to helping stop unplanned pregnancy:

[pyre]

It would also be worth noting that not everyone on earth is in the 40 to 80 thousand income range, and as a result cannot afford to stay on the pill.

The fetus isn't alive. It is sustained entirely by its mother, it is biologically literally connected to her. It is incapable of sentience.

As for the heartbeat thing...

A jellyfish doesn't have a heart, is it alive? What about Protists, Fungi, and Various other prokaryotes?
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Agnostic

The Amazing Randi is my copilot

"We can't hope to win debates with Christians. They have faith, all we have is logic, we can only aim to tie them"
-Michael Shermer

[LindaBee2]

Pyre, so what if the child depends on its mother for nutrients? Children who've been in the world for three weeks still depend upon their mother for food. Does that mean that they're not human?

Also, an unborn baby is not a jellyfish. It's not a prokaryote. Put two humans together, and what do you get? A human baby. You're comparing apples and hot cocoa.

[5thRaven]

[LindaBee2]

Would you please refrain from comparing innocent, defenseless human babies to cows?! That's really cold, don't you think? I mean, don't you place value on the sanctity of human life? Don't you realize that these "fetuses" are human beings, who are meant to be in the world? What if Jane Doe #1 murders her child, who would have grown up to discover the cure for cancer or AIDS? What if Jane Doe #2's murdered child was supposed to become the first female President? Don't you realize the fact that these women - caught up in their own selfishness and fear - are murdering children who could have grown up to do wonderful things?

[fuzz2050]

I understand you opposing abortion, that’s understandable, its debatable, but understandable,

however, if you really oppose abortion, then you should do everything in your ability to prevent it from being necessary. this seems like it should be obvious.

yet, you people (Christian fundamentalists as a whole) seem to oppose almost every method of birth control, however harmless. the pill, you vehemently oppose, for no reason,. same thing with emergency contraceptive. same thing with condoms.

none of these cause anything close to an abortion, so why do you oppose them?


in fact, you only seem to support abstinence as birth control

hence, I can only derive that you guys don’t oppose abortion, you just oppose anything that allows people to have sex without consequences.

[Aineo]

Even a legal abortion can cause sterility and the inability to carry a baby full term if and when a woman wants to have children. Also the psychological trauma that usually accompanies an abortion is a life long problem for some women.

To my knowledge birth control is not frowned on by Protestants unless the reason is to engage in sex outside of marriage, which we oppose as being counter to God's will for man kind.
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[LindaBee2]

Aineo, don't forget that there have been cases where women who've had abortions have died, due to infection.

Anyway, I agree with the Protestants' viewpoint...sort of. If people insist upon having sex outside of marriage, they should be protected from pregnancy and STDs. However, if the women do become pregnant, they should not run away from their responsibility by having an abortion. If they feel they cannot raise their children, then they should give them up for adoption.

Personally, I feel that if I get married (Please, please, please, PLEASE, God, let me get married!), my husband and I will use protection until we are ready - financially, emotionally, and maturity wise - to have children.

[pyre]

[LindaBee2]

The child would still deserve the right to experience life, pyre.

[faithman]

AAAHHH the ignorance and stupidity of the pro-aborts!! Point one: abortion was legal before RoevWade. All RVW did was make abortion on demand legal thru all 9 months. The coat hanger thing is simply a lie. Illegal abortions were preformed by doctors, not coat hanger welding crones. There are many more documented cases of death by legal abortion, than were ever recorded by illegal abortion. Where are all the graves of the dead women who died of abortion before 1973? They simply don't exist, because the pro-aborts lied. This is also well documented by folks who have converted over to pro-life. Dr. nathanson is a case in point. All the pro-abort numbers were simply made up. Abortion causes mental problems, and has been connected to a higher risk of breast cancer. Only about 3% of abortions are for the "hard cases", the rest are elective. There is simply no good reason for abortion on demand. If RVW were over turned tomorow, the state law of Texas would be reinstituted, which made provision for life of the mother. The pro-abort simply keep throwing up non issues. The issue is abortion on demand, for any reason a mother chooses, thru all 9 months.
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A secure, King James toting, Child of God. King and Priest. ambassador of Heaven. Washed in the blood of Jesus. Son with power, saint of God. I have been justified in Spirit, am being sanctified in my soul, and have an earnest hope of being glorified in body at the resurrection. I confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, virgin born, raised from the dead, and the Lord of my life.