Jesus Christ Forums

[Guest]

Tell me what you think, and I will respond.

[webmaster]

Yes it is a sin.

I beleive it's murder!

But I have committed murder because of the hatered I had in my heart for somebody before!

But the killing's of millions of babies makes me sick!
I have 4 kids and the Laws need to changed.

Murder is wrong, but a country that supports it is in for a lot of trouble!
_________________
http://www.former-muslims.com

[Aborted Fetus]

murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another and since abortion is lawful.. yeah, you get the point.

[wil]

That would be mans law, and mans law changes constantly.
Abortion IS murder under GODS LAW.
GODS LAW does not change EVER.

-wil

[Guest]

I have to side with Wilshine on this one. Look back throughout history at how often laws change. Look at how it used to be illegal for a black person to do certain things that white people could, like sit at the front of the bus or go into certain stores. Now the laws have changed. Most people are would be sickened if this happened today, but it was socially acceptable then. Man has made abortion legal, but we cannot put our hope in what man has made, for our knowledge is limited and ever changing. We must look to the one who doesn't change and sees and knows all.

[Guest]

Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

We must keep the laws of man (Romans 13:1-7, 1 Peter 2:13-17) and so, if the government were to bring in a law requiring us to wear a purple hat on a Wednesday, we would be bound to keep that law, although it is not commanded in the scriptures. We also keep the law of God, because

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

The problems occur when a conflict of interest arises - when the government orders us to accept a breaking of the law of God - as in the present case where the government has sanctioned murder, which is clearly forbidden by God. Though we are bound to keep the law of man, we are not bound to sit silently by while our God is ignored - there is nothing to stop us using our rights under the law of the land in order to overturn an unGodly law.

I do believe abortion is murder, and thus breaking the law of God, and because it is so, we must combat it using the means we are entitled to under the law of the land. By this I mean we cannot do as some people have, and kill or attempt to harm abortion providers, because were we to do that we would ourselves break the law of God. But we can, and we should vote for parties against abortion, use marches and rallies and petitions and all the others means for peaceful citizens to express their views to those who make the laws. Hopefully one day we will see abortion once again criminalised and those who do such things placed on a par within the law with murderers.

/Lucilius

[jjf1990]

I agree with this!

"You shall love your neighbor more than your own life. You shall not slay a child by abortion. You shall not kill that which has already been generated"
(Epistle of Barnabas 19.5; second century).
_________________
[align=center:cd3df77541]
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. KJV John 1:1-5


The Truth of who Jesus Christ is can set you free!
Call upon his name!
[/align:cd3df77541]

[Guest]

when did people lose the choice to decide what's best for them?

nobody knows what's going on in a young teenage girls mind who is pregnant.
she can't tell her parents. her, nor her boyfriend, have the means to support a baby.
enough children are up for adoption, and never get adopted.

sometimes there really aren't any other options.

[Chrysoprasus]

It would be best for me if some people didn't exist. I don't go out and kill them. It's murder, even if it's best for me.
And committing a crime is never in the best interest of your soul, whether you believe that at the moment or not.
Chrys
_________________
Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[Guest]

but the fetus in question isn't living and breathing
therefore it's not murder. or illegal. or a sin.

[Chrysoprasus]

Murdering a body while the soul is still in it is murder.
When is a soul imparted to a child?
Chrys
_________________
Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[Lateralus]

a soul? can you define soul...what is there to say a "soul" even occupies the fetus, and if so, who has the right to tell you your own business...you should act the way you want of your own accord





Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life now.
Open my eyes and blind me with your lies now.

[5thRaven]

In almost every case that a child is aborted, the child is unwanted. Wether the child was created out or rape or stupidity is irrelevant. The child is unwanted. The child would not recieve proper care or love. What is a greater sin; Stopping a child from being born or bearing a child the parents cannot or will not provide for? I say better the stop the child from being born in the first place.
Who is to say what goes on in the birth of a child. I say it is just a chemical reaction. All of us are chemical reactions. NO immortal soul but a very very old and complex and majestic chemical reaction. But if you want to talk souls.... How do you know when the soul enters the body of a person. God BREATHED life into Adam. Maybe that means We have to breathe in order to get our souls. A baby that can't breathe at birth dies correct. Maybe the fetus is only a physical shell that lacks a soul so killing it is not murder.
One more thing: If a life that could have been but wasn't is a murder then when a woman has her period or a man jacks off he or she kills a life that could have been (in the case of men he kills millions) should that also be illegal. What about intercourse as well. There are a couple million sperm and only one fertalizes the egg, the rest die. The rest could have been alive but the don't make it. Is that also murder.
We are animals, we evolve, we are walking melenia old miracles; get over it. If the baby isn't wanted, it shouldn't be. There are too many people on the planet for the planet to sustain. Let some of the unwanted ones not be.

[mathyou.]

[fuzz2050]

i see that most of you are opposed to abortion, now, how many of you are also oposed to the morning after pill? it is also known as "emergency contraceptive" it is taken after intercourse and prevents implantation of hte egg. i have heard many anti abortion people who are also oposed to this.
if you are too, please tell me so

[jjf1990]

I am not opposed to it but it needs to be monitered. You should have to goto the doctor and it is given there. That will stop people from abusing it. Simple!

We all make mistakes in life, and if you have unprotected sex 2 days before you should go and get the pill from your doctor after they administer a preg test. But the problem is that the pro-death camps have more money and political power and will push for it to be over the counter so that it is abused.
When can we not in this country get past the Left and Right Garbage?
Why can we not understand the difference between what is right and what is wrong?
_________________
[align=center:cd3df77541]
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. KJV John 1:1-5


The Truth of who Jesus Christ is can set you free!
Call upon his name!
[/align:cd3df77541]

[Guest]

jjf1990, what source do you have in reference to...

"the pro-death camps have more money and political power and will push for
it to be over the counter so that it is abused. "

You can't get normal birth control pills over the counter; why would they push for this?

[fuzz2050]

you push for this because it could drasticly reduce abortions. many people i will admit have trouble taking a pill daily at the same time, but if this was widly avalible, then after unprotected sex, a woman could just go to wallgreens and buy this. the risk of pregnancy goes down upwards of 70%. thats 70% less children that are either given up for adoption, raised by teen parents or (GASP) Aborted. neither of these are great options. it would seem to me that if you really were opposed to abortions, then you should be all for this pill.

since you seem reluctant to accept it, please tell me why

[Guest]

if you notice the pro-choice posts... they consider life to be just "statistics" or chemicals... says a lot about their mentality.

[fuzz2050]

so whats your point, all you did was atempt to degrade me, not adress any of my points

[Guest]

you can keep bringing up all your fancy statistics, how your real "intention" is to eliminate abortion by performing all of it as quickly as possible. The fact is we see life differently and so there's no conversation. I see fetuses as people (though they don't look like it) and you don't. And you can't attempt to woo-prolifers into thinking your idea was pro-life

[fuzz2050]

the computer you are typing on right now is more alive then the fetus. and the morning after pill is not an abortion pill it prevents the implantation of the egg. taking this pill is no more killing a fetus then normally passing it in a period. i cant imagine thta you thikn that thta is murder.

[Guest]

I admire your opening comment for psychological effect but how can anybody say that a computer has more life than a fetus? You are being irrational. Do you recall not being alive when you were inside your mother? I can't honestly say that RU-486 causes death of a child (at least by my definition) but if it does I'll be the first to protest it.

[fuzz2050]

im not talking about RU 46 or whatever, that in fact is an abortion pill, but there is a pill, in essence it is a normal birth control pill, like many women take daily, that prevents an egg from being released. the egg is never fertilized. the egg is passed as if it had never met sperm, it is no more of an "Abortion" then the normal passing of an egg on a womans period.

[Guest]

of course that would not be abortion. But I know many anti-sex people out there who are against any reasons for copulation except for reproduction who with give you time of day on this subject.

[fuzz2050]

and guest, what is your opinion?

[Guest]

There should be no effort to ban that. It is not sin; attitude cannot be regulated.

[Chrysoprasus]

Fuzz, the morning after pill most often prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg. That's not the same as passing it normally in a menstrual cycle. In the menstrual cycle the life process hasn't started, what happens in a normal cycle is that an egg is unfertilized, so the body rids itself of it along with the lining of the uterus. Then the uterus relines itself in preparation of the next month, if the released egg is not fertilized the next month you have another period, if it IS you don't.
Birth control works differently by causing you not to release an egg to start with, thus it cannot be fertilized. However, it doesn't always work. In a certain percentage of instances (between 1 and 10 % I believe) the life process will begin because an egg will still be released, but since the birth control makes the uterus a "hostile environment" it will be unable to implant inside the woman's body. In this case you miscarry the fertilized egg, also known as spontaneous abortion...the early natural death of a child.
Chrys
_________________
Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[fuzz2050]

dear chrys....something

there is only a three day window for the egg to be firtilized, as most people say, the mornign after pill prevents this egg from being released just life the standard birth control.

it just prevents the egg from being released, there is no difference between it and the birth control pill taken daily. it is not in any way even similar to an abortion

[Chrysoprasus]

Fuzz, if that was true (and I know it's said to be true) the emergency contraception pill would have a much higher failure rate.
True, it will prevent ovulation, but if you ARE pregnant it irritates the lining of the uterus enough to preven implantation.
And a good percentage of the time a woman having sex that has to worry about being pregnant will already have released an egg. It's how the female body works. A female's natural desire for sex is strongest when the egg is released, usually about a few days after a menstrual cycle.

http://www.ovulation-calendar.com/ovulation-faq.html#a02

"Ovulation usually takes place 14 days after the beginning of your menstrual cycle. The time of ovulation within the menstrual cycle is determined by the luteal phase, which is usually 12 to 16 days long."

"Your fertile period starts about 4-5 days before ovulation, and ends about 24-48 hours after it. This is because sperm can live in your body for approximately 4 to 5 days, and the egg can live for 24 to 48 hours after being released."

So...unless you time sex to occur only withing a few days after your menstrual cycle, and most women don't because after your true cycle you may still show blood for another day or two because of the time is takes to get out of your body and most women still think they're having it, and then wait until a week before you start again, good chances are that the emergency pill works as an early abortive pill for you.
It does nothing to stop the fertilization of an already released egg, simply makes it not able to implant.

Chrys
_________________
Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[fuzz2050]

all you have is what you call "Good chances" adn speculations. untill you can shoiw me firm proof that it aborts the fetus, such as a medical study from a reliable doctor, who is not extremely pro-life himself.

i will see if i can find a study that prooves my point.

to facts

[Crystal]

The morning after pill I agree with as tenitive better option than abortion.
medicaly speaking only 1 in 4 fertilized eggs implant sucsesfully in the uterus (the strange facts you learn from your OB GYN!?).
The morning after pill was made with intent to prevent pregnancy/
Pregnancy is defined by a fertilized egg implanting itself in the lining of the uterus.
Before that while it is refered to as pregnancy it is a fertilized egg which techinly isnt yet pregnancy since as above mentions only 1 in 4 ever make it. 1 in 4 is a average mind you some women its higher some its lower all depends on the females body.

The morning after pill makes the chemical balance within the uterus umcompatable for implantation of an egg.
Techincly its not an abortion however some people may feel differantly depending on thier spiritual belifes and thier belives are as valid as any other but can not and should not be forced on people who dont hold the same spirital belifes.

As for the question does the morning after pill abort a fetus.
No at that stage in fetilization is not even an embreo yet in otherwords other than DNA it has no defining human qualities.

The pill CAN prevent ovualtion.
But this is the way nature works.
An egg is released now that egg is viable for 24 hours however sperm can live for 72 hours.
Interesting fact only the female cromsone sperm can live that long the males have about a 24 hour life span (more proof females rule!! )
Ok here is the math
Male and female have sex
Morning after female takes pill
ok that will prevent ferilization IF she hasnt already ovualted.
If she has then the pill prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg.
But females sexual desires are ruled in most part by nature and unmarried women are most likly to have sex within the 24 hour frame of ovualting.

I took this pill myself since my body rejects birth control pills this was a viable option for a woman who was involved but not married and recently suffered hemoraging that terminated my pregnancy 6 months into it and because of that my body desperatly needed healing for at least the doc said a year this pill is a more than viable option to prevent true abortion and unwanted children specialy for those who cant use conventional birth control.
Condoms are deadly to some people because of allergies and birth control pills cause a whole host of problems in women who smoke or have a family historys of high blood pressure , and it also conflicts with many phycotrophic drugs.

[fuzz2050]

so.whiel stating many facts tht aseem true, you have failed to state your opinion as well, i would apreciate that. but thank you for your information, im sure that if i had an ob gyn(Im male, im glad i dont need one) im sure he/she would have told me the same

[Crystal]

I did state my views on the morning after pill.
You must have rushed through my post or just missed it.
I dont find the pill to be a problem.
Its not an abortion medicaly speaking anyway.
As I said in my post I find the morning after pill to be a better option to abortion.

[fuzz2050]

and now can we hear a pro liffers view on this pill now

[white rabbit]

Before a pro lifer actually gets the guts to stand up and state his/her opinion about this all under the threat of us disproving it, I have a question: What would happen if abortion WAS made illegal?

I will tell you what would happen. Many women would have to resort to harmful, illegal abortions. There would be thousands of women dying because they stuck a coat hanger up into the uterus so as to abort it. And then, we would actually have a life dying.

Fetuses dont think; they don't have emotions; and I hate to tell you but they have no conception of a God-I know, it's hard to handle the fact that you once ignored your dictator Jesus. However, the grown women can have all of these things. They also have families and friends who dearly love them and would be horribly, perhaps dagerously affected by th deaths.

Jewish law even expresses the sentiment that the mother is more important then the fetus, and if a sacrifice is to be made on either side, it should be that of the fetus.

In addition, remember what Fifth Raven said:what kind of a life does this fetus have ahead of it, if it is unwanted?

Regarding the much debated motrning after pill, I would like to point out that what it affecting is not even an embryo! It is like cracking a chicken egg...it has absolutely no identity or future, there is no sperm involved.

And so, when you respond, I beg you to please consider my question:What is more important, an actually existing person, or a possibility with a quite possibly traumatizing future?
_________________
eternally perplexed regarding the narrow-mindedness of some people

[Chrysoprasus]

[fuzz2050]

[quote="Chrysoprasus/ What's important is what is right or wrong biblically. [/quote]

whts right biblicly to stone children to death for talking back to their parents, or to kill animals daily for sweet savour of god. the bible isn't relevant as it seems, you have to look deeper

[Chrysoprasus]

Yes, there was a period of time when that was done. Note that many things changed after the sacrifice on the cross. We no longer live under such laws and commandments, and the bible lets us know that. To use an example from the past to try to prove the bible is inaccurate for today doesn't make sense.
Ever hear the phrase "The bible is relevant for yesterday, today, and tomorrow"? That's because it is. If you study it you will find the seperate time divisions of what is relevant for when.
Chrys
_________________
Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth.

[Daredevil]

[Crystal]

I understand this is a christian board so the belifes on a unborns soul ect are a valid aurgument for here.
However when it comes to the laws it has to be medical facts or else the courts just toss it right out the window which they should to protect the people who dont hold the same belifes.

But I may be wrong here but it dosnt seem like anyone here is an extreamist.

I think most people agree certain abortions are moraly wrong and some are ok.

There is a saying that rings true in the case of abortions no matter which way it goes.

A tree's who branches dont sway and bend a little in the wind will break and die.

What does this mean when applied to the Pro Life/Pro Choice movements?

Well its simple really if abortion is made illegal No one wins because they will still be performed by those who have money they have but to cross a national border.
For those who are poorer there are much more danger involved.
So pro lifers lose well because obviously there are still abortions and dont let statistics fool you they were much higher than people think back then it was just kept extreamly quiet My grandmother even handed down to me and my family a herbel tea to drink that stimulates the uterus to exspel a fetus. She said this was the common remedy when she was younger.
Of course she was an apache .

Not all Pro Lifers want all abortions baned but they do want them to have tighter rescrictions.
I happen to be one of those people

The Pro Choice people.
most Pro choice also wish there was a way to get rid of certain abortions.
Why dont they lobby for it?
Simple because of the extreamist if you outlaw one kind it leads to the outlawing of another kind and so on and so forth.
So without some sort of sign they can get rid of say partial birth abortions and still keep early term abortions they arnt going to budge.

So we have two sides that want all or nothing and it will never work we dont live in an ideal world and we dont live in a country ruled by christianity.

If you were wicce` like me abortion is a desision that is a family choice not not just the womans and is much spiritual as it is physical (in other words you pray to the spirit of the child and tell them that they cant be cared for right now) and offer thier spirit back to the goddess for safe cradleing untill a parent is ready for them.

There are SO many differant views and reasons for keeping and baning abortions that its almost impossible to understand them all and the courts dont want to touch it.

I cant say I blame them.

I cant say I understand the christian view of objectioning an abortion based on if the child has a soul or not...wouldnt it just go back to God?
I assume to be reborn or heaven I'm not real sure what thier belifes are there I have heard both.

[fuzz2050]

i agree that abortions are not to be thrown out wantonly, but they should be a last resort in cases where it is life or death, or if it simply by far the best alternative. a high school student for instance, if she were to become pregnant, and carry the child she would miss out on a large hunk of her education, it would impair her for the rest of her life.

plus the side efffects of an abortion are enough to limmit their distribution

[Daredevil]

Your proposal sounds attractive, fuzz. We've come a long way since you first arrived.

But how can you possibly value a person's education over another's life? Is a person nothing but his/her education? Is a person nothing but a job he or she might or might not get? Is a baby nothing but a birth pang? It's unfortunate a baby killed inside the womb is less dramatic than if a baby was killed outside of the womb. But it's still killing. However your point about saving a woman's life is valid, at least theoretically.

I apologize if my previous comments have offended anyone around here. You've got to understand that pro-lifers can't just rest on telling people "well, the bottom line is I feel it's murder and you think it's a medical procedure. We'll just have to agree to disagree" - because it shows lack of conviction or even hypocrisy. We've got to say it as it is: murder or else the opposition will be energized by our insincerity.

[Crystal]

Well thats why I support a womans choice in the first trimester because I do not belive its murder at that point and in fact only a small section of america does belive its murder at that point.

The question of if it has a soul or spirit or not is compleatly irelavint (sp?) when it comes to the law.
True mans law may change here and there but in america its the only law that matters to everyone.
Is abortion moraly wrong in the first trimester?
I dont belive so
Second trimester?
Yes I belive so and one may ask why?
Because simply at that point they show every sign of being a seperate life form still dependant on thier mother.
What is a seperate life form you might ask?
Well they grow they feed they even excreate waste but past that in teh second trimester they begin to dream and that shows true life when the brain begins to function past the level of just reflexes.
But today in america abortions are legal to th point of insainity.
I DO belive a teenage mothers futare life is more important than a first trimester pregnancy.
Why?
One yes it can to a degree ruin your life but that all a matter of opinion.
Adoption isnt always a good option if even an option children who are over the age of 1 or have problems tend to go into state care and by that time thier chances are virtualy nil of being adopted.
and statisticly speaking a whoping 80% of those children end up on welfare or in prison most of their adult lives.
Sadly most in prison because a life of crime is about all they can find in the world with little to no guidance in the world.
There are far to many children here to force more into the world.
Far to many in our country alone!
One person can scream adoption adoption all they want but they get a deaf ear from me and many other's who belive a womans choice in the first trimester should remain protected why?
Because a shocking number of pro lifers dont even attempt to foster children already here or adopt.
I have seen several couples who cant have children lobbying for baning abortions yet...they refuse to adopt and go to infertility clinic instead...
I mean REALLY
Think about the logic lets .....complain and whine because women are killing thier babys.
Oh wait we want a baby lets go toa fertility clinc and go aww to bad the next time we hear of a child getting killed due to child abuse and yet they still refuse to help and adopt.
Those people make me sick and although I'm far from a violent person I do find myself wishing them harm because of thier pure selfishness.

every 3 seconds a child is born in the U.S
every 8 seconds a child is born to a teenage mother
every 60 seconds a child dies in the U.S due to birth problems
every 24 hours a child dies in the U.S due to neglect or abuse the number is low since most are never caught.
every hour a child is born addicted to drugs or achohal.
A large number of those children die or will never lead a self sustaining life.

Those numbers are taken from my local WIC office (woman infants and children) they help with nutritianal needs and health/counsiling for mohters and children age 5 and under.
Please note these statistics are ONLY for the USA thats a whole lot of babies being born a whole lot not aborted I dont think adoptive parents should have any trouble finding a child to love..note I said CHILD not baby.
To truly be a person who is willing to share thier life and love they must open thier minds and heart fully and not just to the smallest of our kind.
So to all the pro lifers out there if you really care try to make the world a better place give a child a home and set an example dont just saying be a nike fan and just DO IT.
(note I did aply to be a foster parent myself but due to a sealed state case of my childhood I was turned down they do not allow people severaly abused as children to foster or adopt for fear of a cycle repeating itself)

[white rabbit]

[Daredevil]

So you must be one of those "seperation of church and state" guys. I'll have to agree with you that abortion should not be outlawed. Not because it is a bad thing, but because as you said, there will be coat hanger abortions and other risky procedures. This is not a matter of the law, but people's attitude to human life. When somebody gets raped, it's always about the woman "not wanting to be reminded of this". It's never about perhaps there's a live person inside of her. When a condom breaks, it's always about the couple only wanting sex. It's never about the baby that has been conceived. It's the attitude we have these days - life is discardable/disregardable if it can't plead for it. This attitude reminds me of a certain McDonald's promotion, where you get a toy for every meal purchase, and what ended up happening were people buying mountains of fries for a single toy, and stuffing the food into a garbage bin. Call me cruel, a Nazi, "narrowminded" or whatever, but that's how people think these days. There's no respect for whoever might be born after you.

[Daredevil]

White rabbit:

BTW, since you can so confidently assume that a person's life would be so great if they could just have an abortion, couldn't I say the same thing about the unborn child? The child could have been the next scientist who finds the cure for cancer, the next soldier who fights for his/her country, an astronaut, a famous actor/actress, a prominent musician, right? There's a million arguments for you!

Of course this doesn't make sense, but in a way you're saying the same thing when you make that point, right?

[Crystal]

Well I guess i'm pretty open minded since I am a pagan and extreamly happy both in mind and body for it.
I rejected christianity yes but only after 20 years of following it and feeling the whole time it wasnt right for me.
I havent a problem with homosexuality they are people just like us they love, they hope, they have compassion and have that right to love whom ever they wish to reject them as a human based on thier sexual preferance is perhaps more of a sin than anything else.
Its a dislike for them based on something that has no effect on them as a person and this dislike forms a hatred that has lead to such persacution of them
homosexuality is shown in every animal on earth not just humans there must be a reason for it we are just humans we have no say in whats right or wrong when it comes to what makes a person happy in love.
I dont care what the bible says the bible was written by man not a god and its well proven that many of the scripts were changed threwout history.
My best friend all through school was a homosexual it didnt make me uncomfortable to be around her and she never once bothered me.
There is nothing wrong with homosexuals there IS something wrong with peple who refuse to accept them and care for them as they are.
I dont judge people on thier belifes or what they do in thier bedroom or if they are ugly, tall, short or what color they are.
What I judge people on is one thing do they practive what they preach?
If not then one can not exspect to get any respect from me and thats just how it is.
I have more respect for a gay man in a loving relationship with another man than a man and woman married and fighting and tearing each other down constantly.


My best friend now is a mormon and I think thats about the most crack pot religian in the world!
but it dosnt matter she is still my best friend and a great person.
Sure she gets alot of harressment from her church because of her (what they think is a devil worshing friend) but she dosnt listion to them
In fact the only thing that upsets me about her is she wont stand up to them about getting her child on medication (the little girl has ADHD) to help her in school were she is failing but thats just me I try and respect her belifes she sure as heck respects mine and her kids and mine are kids.
You want the best view of what this world should be like?
Go to a park full of young kids you know before they understand differances and they all play together they all treat each other as equals despite color, religian, and yes sexual preferance children who grow up to be homosexual show the sighns from very early on.
Being one religian or another dosnt make you close minded its refuseing to think anyone but you can possibly be correct that is.
Why am I not a christian?
Simple because as a older teen I finaly spoke to my preacher at my baptist church and I told him how I felt.
I felt almost every christian I met was just the most evil horrible people on earth.
Needless to say he was shocked and he asked why.
So I said they all say to love each other and yet they put other people who are differant down nonstop.
So he replied but the bible says these people are doing wrong by god.
To which I said to him but god said man was not to judge others for it was a great sin to do so and in effect made you worse than them and only god could determin who was evil and who was not.
He looked at me like I had slaped him and he said yes I was right but people are just people and cant help it.
I didnt accept that and I never came back and now looking back and very happy I didnt as a christian I remained extreamly unhappy and few understood me two suiside attempts only drove most the people in church away from me further there was no help for me there no happiness just a constant reminder that I wasnt like them and they shuned me for it.
I found happiness in a neo pagan religian and I found alot of emotional healing there and alot of support from people who didnt judge me for what I had done but rather just pointed me to what I could do to change things.
I took that advise and turned my life around so if i'm evil on some peoples eyes well then let them think what they will.
They can stew in thier own pointless hatred and I shall continue to be happy.
Loving god is about what is in your heart not about what is written in a book.
We as people should follow our belifes because we want to not out of fear what will happen to us if we dont.
If you preach love thy neighbor then do it regaurdless of what they belive in or who is in thier bed.

[Daredevil]

Crystal: Christianity was never designed to make anybody "feel good about themselves". I agree with you that your former church members weren't really Christians, but for a different reason. Nobody is a Christian just by condemning others for what they do. It's a personal experience that takes time. Pointing out what may be wrong about other people doesn't make you a better person. It's what's wrong about yourself. Another misconception these days is that you can choose to be a Christian out of a menu of other religions. The fact is, only God can choose his followers. But these days people want to tell God when they want to become Christians. As a result there are many fake converts in the churches these days. I may sound like arrogance thus far, but at least you must agree that every religion has a right to be different, especially on the issue on what qualifies one as a believer. I urge you to see a pastor (definitely NOT your former pastor) who is really born again and hopefully be a part of his congregation, because nobody can escape the final judgment.

[Crystal]

I thank you for your consern but I do not wish to become a christian ever.
I know what is right for me and it is not.
Despite how some think or act there are other christians who are perfect examples of what a christian should be.
It has nothing to do how many christians act as to why I am not one.
It has everything to do with what I feel is right in my heart.
We as humans are born onto an earth of wonders and no god be it a christian or pagan god would have put us here to ignore what is in our heart and know to be true.
I dont belive in a judgment day I cant accept that a loving god would punish those who didnt or couldnt understand.
We all die someday but I dont see it as an ending only a transition and I feel happy in fact I know its not the end I dont need a church or pastor or even a named god to reassure me i KNOW myself I belive in that.
I belive in a god and a goddess I belive in life and death but I dont belive a god could possibly hate any human enough to punish them for eternity
and it would take hate to do that for so long because love is only tough long enough for the one wrong to understand then it ends .
We are only human after all our brains can understand the dealings of the cosmos.
I think what we can understand is we are a walking talking belife no god made us in his image A God made us so he may walk in us and we may walk with him it dosnt matter WHAT you call him or her only that you belive.
And to say its so important to be one religian or another is simply silly because there is no good god nor evil god but good and evil in one spirit.
One can not know good without knowing evil or see the light without first walking in darkness you can not seperate the two because its only together that they are whole.
So i belive no god is truly evil or good but both if that sounds silly to you then belive me when I say your belifes seem just as silly to me.
Because all I can say is its whats in your heart that matters not who you worship or how you worship or if you even do at all.
Religian isnt about praying its about living and living as you belive you should spiritualy.

[April Joy]

I'd just like to say I read through this entire post and I have so much to say.

I believe Abortion is murder, there is no question in my mind.

I have come to this conclusion through much discussion, prayer and researcher.
Here is what I know to be scientifically true.

Life begins at conception.
Why? Because all that is neccesary to create a human is present in what is known as the Zygote (the fertilized egg) before implantation. Nothing but nutrients will be added.

A friend of mine miscarried her 16 week old daughter, her name was Madeline. She was describing to me how beautiful she was. She had hands and feet, a little nose, everything that a living baby has.
The claim that the fetus is not in fact alive is absurd if you have ever seen an ultrasound or listened to a babies heart beat.

To whoever said that in the first trimester it was not living, look here.
I just want you to see what you claim is not alive.
http://www.w-cpc.org/fetal1.html

The heart begins to beat at 28 days.
Don't believe me?
Check this out: http://www.justthefacts.org/continue.asp


I want to discuss "back alley abortions" and I will, but I'm out of time at the moment.

[white rabbit]

Sure, April Joy, the fetus is technically alive at some point during the first trimester. So is a mosquito.
_________________
eternally perplexed regarding the narrow-mindedness of some people

[Whatever]

okay, that was ridiculous.
A mosquito isn't human, never was and never will be, you can't compare the two.

[white rabbit]

The fetus has the same intelligence and morals as the mosquito, and it thinks the same amount - it doesn't think at all. My friends, don't you see? It is not the body that matters, it is the soul. The soul will live on, even, as Crystal said, if the parents of this fetus are not able to raise that soul in that body, it may simply go back to God to await another body.

Leviticus 17:11 is referring to the law of kashrut in which man is not allowed to eat blood(one of the many laws, might I add, which Christians do not have to follow, therefore invalid arguing from a Christian standpoint). However, if you would like to use it, you still must take it in context - when referring this to eating, the Torah is basically comparing the consumption of blood to cannibalism, quite a different moral issue than abortion. In addition, if the abortion takes place in the first 28 days(approximately) there is no heart beating and therefore no blood flowing.

Of course, I too have major problems with people who use abortion as their method of birth control instead of trying hard to prevent this(although there aren't many of these people - an abortion is not a fun thing to go through), however, we must seperate our own moral beliefs from societies for the good of society. As I have previously stated, many more people would die from dangerous methods of abortions. Jewish law says that sometimes the highest law is the law of the land, and it should be upheld for the good of a greater society than one's own religious community. With this principle in mind, we should make this worldfer pace and not let our own morals get in the way of the true, living people worldwide.
_________________
eternally perplexed regarding the narrow-mindedness of some people

[webmaster]

[April Joy]

Okay..here we go
First off most women (I know this because I asked my ObGyn) do not discover that they are pregnant until they are around 4 weeks pregnant. Add it up, that is more than 28 days (I've also read that the heart starts to beat as eary as 21 days, that's a mere three weeks).

So you are saying that it is all about the soul?
When do you believe the soul becomes a part of the body?
Is there some magical moment in which the developing human automatically has a soul?

If you want to use the Bible:

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;

Psalm 139

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.



Oh as far as thinking goes.
Do you know how hospitals determine that a patiend is clinically dead?
They measure brain waves and brain activity.
As early as 6 weeks brain waves can be measured.
Tell me that child doesn't deserve a chance.

And you mention the child not being wanted or not being cared for.
I say (explative deleted) that!

I have 4 younger siblings.
All of them unwanted by their biological mother.
All of them spent years in the system, in and out of foster homes, living on the streets.
Their first few years were shitty.
But then my family found them and adopted them.
Ask them now if they think they should have just been aborted.
Sure, there life was hell to begin with, but that doesn't mean they didn't deserve a chance at life.

[Crystal]

Its our sociaty we are the ones who have created all our own problems
How do we fix it?
How do we stop that child who is left out and not welcomed into the world?
Do we help him or simply condem him after he walks through his classroom door and opens fire on his fellow students?
We have caused our own problems and we seek to lay the blame at the feet of others but murder, rape, abortion , child abuse
wasnt caused by others it was caused by us..all of us as a whole and it will take all of us to fix it.

If your upset because I say you yourself have helped lead to these problems then before you get mad ask yourself this.

Have you ever put one person down because they wernt the same as you?

If you have then welcome to the world of helping to create a person with a broken fuse.

you can all sit there in your little houses and pretend to be all that you percive yourself to be.
You can sit there and call each other sick or murderous (insert some tasteless nasty word here) and scream it through a computer screen all you want and do you know what it does?
Honestly do you think it fixes problems?
No it dosnt it only breeds hate.
It dosnt matter if its hate agasint abortion or hate agasint a scrict pro life stance.
Hate breeds hate if you hate abortion its only a matter of time before that twinge of hatred tword those who perform , support or have abortions creeps into that fast beating heart of yours.
Dont belive me?
i'm sure the people who have died due to bombs in clinics if they could speak to you could convince you of it.
And if you say they deserved it for ending innocent lives then take a good hard look and ask yourself why am I prolife if I belive that killing others is a justified means of ending killing.

If you hate prolifers then you begin to hate all that they stand for which is what?
Religian often times, and soon you can becomes so comsumed by hateing everything they stand for and you can become blind to careing about the small lives in general.
And if you no longer care then ask yourself what have I become?

Abortion nor any of these other issues are going to go away.
Legal or not they arnt going away unless WE change oureselves aceept it and move on.
What does it mean to move on?
It means we live on a world that we do not own we only borrow from our children.
Its our children who will change the world for good or worse depends on who we raise them.
If we raise them to think of abortion in terms of black and white its either OK. or wrong then nothing will change.
Abortion issue is a million shades of gray.
Only way it will become black and white is to throw all religan based aurgments out the window.
Perhaps if we teach our children what love really is and the differance between sex and love that the two are compleatly differant we can lower unwanted pregnancys.
Maybe if we teach our children to always try and adopt a child instead of having one of thier own we can help get alot of unwanted children out of the system.
If we stop teaching our children how to be biggots , racisist , or hate others because of thier relgian or sexual preferances we can stop almost every crime out there on our streets today.
Maybe if we teach our children who will be better off finaltinly in this world to always help those who are not so fortunete maybe we can eliminate other problems like drug trafficing and violence that spawns of desperation in life.
Why would that lower drug trafficing?
I'll be more than happy to tell you several years ago I sold drugs in a small town to help pay bills and rent and take care of a small child while still working two jobs..two jobs wernt enough to cover bills and rent and everything needed so I did what I had to.
Sure I contributed to a huge problem but I did what i had to.
Looking back sure it was wrong but at the time I could only see to making sure my child was cared for

WE as in US adults right now arnt going to solve anything by fighting over petty differances like belife in when a soul enters a body or if its human or alive or not.
None of that really matters when you look at a bigger picture.

We cant solve anythign if we cant overcome ourselves to start with.
But what we can do is teach our kids to respect life as a whole and with that teching they will grow to do so...as well as loving and respecting themselves.
ANd that is what will end abortion.
Not a law
Not a religian
Not a country or government.
Not people who cant accept that things all hinge on how they effect the world around them.

If my post offendes anyone my apologies in advance but I still belive in what I posted to be true in my eyes.
_________________
Some days your the windshield.
Somedays your the bug.

[LB]

No abortion is not a sin...... It's just a very sad position women find themselves in.. You should feel sorry for these people not be nasty to him.



James Peter 03.04.03 due to abortion

RIP James

[LindaBee2]

[LB]

Me regreting what I have done is nothing to do with me feeling I have commited a sin...... I regret what I have done, purely after cradling my son in my arms.... Pain never came into it. I gave birth to James normally, so had the pain for roughly 7.5 hours anyway. Pretty shallow to say that..... As I'm aware no abortion is ever painfree..... It must be so hard being so perfect, having nothing better to do than come on these sites and criticise others less fortunate than yourself. I do hope you don't call yourself a christian, when you behave like that. I see you say you are a Sunday School Teacher. My 1st son goes to Sunday School every week..... I just thank God that his teacher is more caring and genuine. It really annoys me how you claim to love your faith when you behave the way you do... My father is an elder of the church so I am in company of real christians and have never met any as opinunated as you. I suggest you seek some help from perhaps your minister/priest. I feel so sorry for you having so much hate built up inside you...... Your faith obviously does nothing for you making you such a bitter bitter person......

[LindaBee2]

[LindaBee2]

FYI - Not a Sunday school teacher. Not a teacher at all, in fact. The Sunday school teacher part is my rank on this board.

You preach about how nobody should judge you, then you turn around and judge me. You don't know me. You know squat about me. I'm not bitter. I just choose to sympathize more with a child who was never given a chance at life. Pardon me if I feel that you had a choice, and you made the wrong one.

When was your baby given a choice?

That's right! You never gave him one!

[LB]

Forgive me for saying but as an unborn child, they do not have rights....... How would you feel either being adopted passing other people in the street wondering if they were your parents/family.... everyday of your life....... How would you feel growing up in a split household, with a Mum and Dad who were either always arguing or had split up... No money, or sharing a house that wasn't big enough for 5 people.... This was what James's future consisted of, at the end of the day I had to make the decision, for the best thing for MY child..... I did what I thought was right at the time...... In the respect that no I don't regret it because none of these things have chnaged... I only regret it because my son was the most beautifull baby boy I have ever seen....... I'm young and will have the chance to have another baby one day, so will have another beautiful boy no doubt when time, money and relationshiop ate on my side

[webmaster]

What you did was choose what was best for you, not the child.

[LindaBee2]

[LindaBee2]

[LB]

You are quite right the only forgivness I need is from our maker....... Shame on you all...... I pity the day you meet him and he has a few choice words for you all...... True Christians don't judge others, or at least that is how we were brought up in our church.....

PS In my country open adoption is NOT an option.

[LindaBee2]