Jesus Christ Forums

[Guest]

PAUL'S TEACHINGS

Concerning the Law:

But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which hld us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new lifw of the spirit. (Roman 7:6)

For the law brings wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation. (Romans 4:15)

You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourself off from the Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

These statements imply that while the Law was binding on Jesus(pbuh), it was not binding on Paul and his followers! Remeber what Jesus (pbuh) said, almost as if he had anticipated Paul's position of influence:

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (matthew :18-19)

Concerning the Law:

Paul presented a very simplistic formula to attain salvation, in sharp contrast to the teachings of Jesus (pbuh):

That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from dead, you will be saved. (Roman 10:9)

These two versions of the person of christ and his message ('Gospel') lead us to ask whether Paul could have better comprehended the meaning of the Gospel tha Jesu (pbuh) himself did?!!

[Josh]

[Guest]

But it was Paul who gave Jesus (pbuh) the status of the Lord. The term does not necessarily mean God. It is used in the New testament to mean "teacher" or "master". Jesus (pbuh) himself said he was the Son of Man. Jesus (pbuh) being called the Son of God does not mean he was God, Adam (luke 3:3, Israel (Jer.31:9) and (Exod 4:22), David (2SAM 7:14), Solomon (I Chron 22:10) were called sons of God. More than one prophet was called "first born" (eg.ABraham, Jacob, David). See for example Psalms 2:7. "Only son" is not used literally in the Bible (Gen 22:2). "Sons of god" was also used (Gen 6:2, Deut, 14:1, Hos 1:10). BUt to keep in line with the topic, if you compare Jesus (pbuh)'s sermon with the new Paulian teachings.. they are in conflict... Why can't you see that?!

[Guest]

Furthermore, Jesus called himself Son of Man and refused to be called Son of God. Luke 4:41:

"And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak for they knew that he was Christ"

It is clear that he refused to be called Son of God. He refused again in Luke 9:20 and 21, and charged them too.

"He (Jesus) said unto them (the disciples), But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

Does your Bible say something different?

[Guest]

Furthermore, Jesus called himself Son of Man and refused to be called Son of God. Luke 4:41:

"And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak for they knew that he was Christ"

It is clear that he refused to be called Son of God. He refused again in Luke 9:20 and 21, and charged them too.

"He (Jesus) said unto them (the disciples), But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straightly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

Does your Bible say something different?

[Josh]

It is clear that you have no understanding of any scripture, Jesus said this parable about you. You should take it heart.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

[Naaji]

I dont see why you cant see what you are following are flase teachings : you think your following what jesus (pbuh) has told you, but your not, your preaching the adaptations that the modern church has brought, that is no longer representitive of what Jesus was sent to show the JEWS and the jews alone, he was a prophet only for them. Do you ever fast like jesus(pbuh) did? fast like moses(may allah be please with him)? do you bow down in prayer, and prostrate with your head on the floor like it says to in the psalms of david? if you dont your not worshiping your god in the way your supposed to, cause i do all these things, these things that are written in the bible.

[Naaji]

The bible also tells us to worship facing a holy place, and there are references to pilgrimages.... do you do either of these? id be supprised if you did any of the above.

[Alpha]

[Naaji]

Wow, what a religion you have, jesus tells you the only way to get to heaven is to be like him, and yet you dont even follow his examples of worship? and you expect to get to heaven like that? look to the beginning, this life is a test of character not belief, adam, he was suposed to live forever, but because he did wrong he was punished, yet he still believed in god, the point in this life lies in belief, and doing the things which god has asked you to do..... just as every prophet did as allah said, so should we.... i will obey my god even to my death.

[Guest]

[Isa Mere Prphet]

[Isa Mere Prophet]

[Naaji]

*agrees* but 'isa mere prophet', your name, your making out it is low order to be a prophet, cant you change your name to 'Isa a prophet,not a god', because to be a prophet is very important

[carol_au]

When one looks at the Bible, Qu'ran or indeed any Holy Book of any Faith, it would seem that religions are about obeying rules and regulations to satisfy the demands of the Holy God.

This is where Chrisitianity in it's true form differs. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by me. " John 14:6.

He also said in John 14:8 that oneday the promised Holy Spirit would come and would no longer live with people but would be in them and write God's word not on tablets of stone, like the OT laws were given to Moses, but on the heart. (compare with Ezekial 18, Exekial 36:27, Joel 2:28, 1 Cor 3:16,2 Cor 3:3)

You see the big difference between the religion of christianity and the true christian is not about the law and following it.. it's about relationship with Jesus who is the way to the Father. Who stands at the hearts door and promises to come in and fellowship with us. No amount of religious practices from any religion will give us that wonderful relationship with God the Father.

Carol _au

[Alpha]

[Naaji]

how roode!! lol, youve misquoted me, i said in the beggining this life was not a test of belief, because adam knew there was a god and it was him who spoke to him, so for adam there was no need to believe, just to have that character which he failed. but for US we have to have the character AND the belief. hope now you understand what i said alpha

[Sorry Naaji I agree]

Alpha... you are arguing that the Allah as muslims perceive is different to all the other Prophets. But before Jesus, thoses that believed in the oneness of God did not believe humans to be God. Adam, David, Moses (pbuta) did not worship Jesus (pbuh)!!! They worshipped the one unseen God. Please dont deny that Jesus (pbuh) did the same! Muhammad (pbub) did the same! It's only the followers and listeners of Paul that began to distort the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) and made the religion of Jeus (pbuh) into a religion about Jesus (pbuh)!!

And to Carol_au..... Jesus(pbuh) said he will ask God for another Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who will abide with us forever. Muslims believe that The Comforter Jesus (Pbuh) was referring to was Muhammad (pbuh) not himself or else, he should have surely said that I will come but not in human form. If Jesus was saying that the Comforter will then abide with us forever...well..if he was God... why did he not say he was omnipresent and was always abiding with us. Why are Muslims wrong to think that the Comforter that Jesus (pbuh) was referring to was none other than (Muhammad (pbuh) who :

1. Specifically said that there will be no other prophet after him.
2. Thus the law that he bought down had now finally been perfected and thus the perfect religion will now abide with us forever.
3. Even before his prophethood, he was named Al-Amin..meaning Trustworthy ie THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.. by the non-believers and paganists.
4. Muhammad (Pbuh) as Jesus (pbuh) had prophecised told us of things to come 1400 yrs ago. If he was not the true messenger of God, then how do you explain scientific knowledge known in the Quran for centuries?

You see Jesus (pbuh) at no point said that he was the last Prophet. As for him being the Truth, the Way etc.. well.. all prophets are considered the truth and the Way in their prophethood.Also Jesus' (pbuh) mission was admittedly to the Jews only.. and had come not to destroy the law but to fulfil it.. so if not to destroy.. to maintain the law of Moses... which bit are you confused about? Why give a self-annointed disciple (paul) the status of a Prophet, and why give a Prophet (Jesus(pbuh)) the status of God? God!! Why??

[Naaji]

Indeed alpha you are write god said not to take or add to his scripture, whoever does so shall be punished. Muhammad(pbuh) didnt change the bible though! he didnt change the scripture! when god says through his prophet jesus(pbuh), and through jhon in revelation not to add to the scriptures they are talking about those scriptures, the Qur'an is an entirely different book, it is the LAST TESTAMENT. Gods final word. Gods way of putting his will back as it should be, and showing the christians their wrongs in changing the religion and teachings that jesus(pbuh) brought to them, thus ultimately reforming the religion to the way jesus (pbuh) actually preached it.

[naaji]

bear with me and my grammar and spelling, sorry as i said before im in a rush, i meant right, and not write lol.

[Guest]

Paul was never a prophet.. infact Paul had problems even considering himself an apostle..(. the fact he was the only one to be given that title who had not seen Jesus before He died and rose again always left him considering himself the least of the apostles. I Cor 15:9)

Jesus did appear to Paul and did give him a job to do and Paul endured terrible persecution in order to carry out that commission. (Acts 9, 2 Cor 11-13))

It's interesting, when Jesus prayed and asked God the third person of the God head to send the Holy Spirit into the lives of believers, He did it for a reason. In John 17 he says that purpose was that "they may be one as we are one" and in Acts 1 it was that they would receive the promised Power from on high and the promise from Ezekial 37, that oneday the Spirit of God would dwell in people and not just on people. (Do you not know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit (I Cor 6:19) who you have received from God.

To accept Jesus as God demands an understanding of the Trinity - the concept of Father Son and Holy Spirit. When true Christians talk of Jesus, they know Him as John describes him in John 1:1...In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John then states that "the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us" John 1:14. When we talk of Jesus, it is not just a prophet we are talking about. John the Baptist who was himself a prophet, says in John 1:29 after declaring that one would come after him whose sandals he was unworthy to untie.. that "Look the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".

We are not talking of a prophet when we declare Jesus is Lord.. we are saying that He is the one who in Revelation 1:9 appears again to John in a vision of the endtimes and declares himself " like the Son of Man" and yet is worshipped by the Angels. The Bible states in Rev 1:7 that "he is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him and those who pierced Him and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him". He declares Himself "the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, who is, and who was and who is to come the Almighty.

May God himself bless your search in finding Him.

Carol_au

[carol_au]

My apologies everyone,

my connection disconnected before I sent my last post and I didn't realise I had not relogged in. Please note that Guest in the aforementioned post and me Carol_au are the same person.

Have a nice day

Carol_au

[Naaji]

Your getting this though from a christian path that has been changed and corrupted over the generations. The bible and christian ethics have been adapted to suit the needs of individuals. the books of the new testament are no longer respective of the teachings of Jesus (pbuh). Indeed as i have proved before they are not even the words of god, allthough there may be Gods word quoted in there, as God came to the prophets and gave them his revelations. The new testment, yes it may be inspired by god, BUT they are the words and thoughts of man, recording events AFTER they had happened, Jesus never wrote down what he had said. How do you know that paul didnt "invent" Jesus' (pbuh) coming to him, in order to influence the religion to suit his beliefs? before in the old testament, god mentions not of his 'three aspects', if you read the old testament without the new, like the jews did, and with no knowledge of the aforementioned trinity you would never come to the conclusion that a trinity was in existence, it is only with the new testament, and the christian scholars that this has come about. if you look at the amalgamation of events it seems logical that allah sent us the quran to put us write. Originally god tells us to do righteous good deeds, and obey his law, then the crisitians change this to three gods in one, and all you have to believe is in jesus (pbuh), so god puts that error right, and were back to one god, one belief and the need to respect his law, and obey what he has commanded.

[carol_au]

Naaji

I would agree with you that on the surface it would be easy to say that the Bible in it's entirety.. old and new testament has gone through changes.. so that instead of BEING the Word of God it now just CONTAINS the Word of God. Translations and the many versions of the Bible in existance would indeed lead one to think that there has been changes... problem is, if you follow that line of thought, all of us, regardless of how we view the Bible are then forced to ask ourself... Which parts are not the Word of God?

The Bible itself asserts in numerous places that it will not ever fade away or be lost

Psalm 119: 89, Isaiah 40:8, Matthew 5:18, Matthew 24:35 and 1 Peter 1:25.. and if any one really felt like changing any part of it.. read the result in Rev 22:18-20.

Interestingly, Jesus Himself used the words from the New Testament. The New Testament asserts that the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any sword. It penetrates .. it judges thoughts and attitudes. (Hebrews 4:13)

You see, one of the problems of saying that the New Testament is the work of mere humans is to forget that those words were written by men who were eyewitnessess of His Glory (John 1:14 and John 21:25) and asserts that men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. It was Peter one of Jesus's own Disciples and not Paul who said in 11Peter 1:19-20 that "above all you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy's never had their origin in the will of man, but men spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit".

Naaji.. even if the Bible did have man's words and interpretations in it.. my own knowledge of the way it changes my life and how God speaks to me through it, the mere fact it does have God's word in it according to your arguement, leads me to ask, who would therefore dare to decide which part is God's truth and which part isn't? It has survived many thousands of years, many attempts to destroy it and yet millions continue to asssert how it changes lives today even just by reading it.

Oh and in answer to your question, the OT is full of proof of the Triune God Head and the book of Hebrews in the OT is the best book to read of the fulfilment of all the purposes and the prophecy's of the OT Law through and in Jesus Christ.

God bless your search for truth

Carol_au

[Naaji]

That is of course the point, we dont decide which points are from god and which are not, it is not for us to judge. we take the quran, and use it as gods last revelation, his last testemant. Where they contradict the quran superceeds, because it is the last and gods actual word. now for the better parts of my arguement. The books of the bible were written at seperate times and collectivised. The revelation to john, when given to him he wrote the scripture and it is one of prophecies for the day of judgement, and not a guide as most of otehr scriptures are meant.

This is the kjv translation:

rev 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"

The english translation here has been changed to say book, rather than scripture. We know that the books of the bible arent in chronological order, but revelation is included last in the collection to make people believe that it is refering to the entire bible, (this is an example of how christians have adapted the bible to suit them). If you read it in the original signs its written in you will note that the word originally used is "scripture" and is not refering to the bible, but rather this revelation for the day of judgement alone. so it should read:

'For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this scripture, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this scripture'

Even if you do translate the word as book, the bible as a collective like now didnt exist at the time of this revelation, and so the revelation would have been the 'book' as thats what it was - a book of revelation. Simply by looking at the entire verse in context we can see that john is talking only about his revelation.

psa 119:89 'LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven'

This is not saying the bible will be around forever, rahter god will always give us his word to follow.

Isa 40:8 'The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever'

Again this is not saying the bible will be around forever.

Matt 5:18 'For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled'

Mattheew 24:35 'Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away'

Neither of these go far enough to establish that it will be the bible that will flourish forever, rather just the words of god and his law, which we still have today under the qur'an.

1ptr1:25 'But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.'

Again gods word will be around forever, and the word of the lord is not the same as the book that contains it, the second part of that, this can again be attributed that god will give us ways of ensuring we know his word (through prophets and books). If god actively prevented people from changing his word he would be inhibiting free will, which is what he gave us in the first place to test us.

To challenge your last points about the trinity in the torah, give me the book, chapter, and the verses and ill show you how you are being biased in your thinking.

And by the way there is no need for you to bless my search for the truth, i was a church of england christian, but now ive found the truth, and inshallah (with the blessings of god), your search will soon be complete too.

[Josh]

One of the funniest thing I have ever heard is people who calls themselves ex-christians. To be completely honest and God is my wittiness they do not exist, because an ex-christian was never a christian to begin with. They was playing the part of a religion like the Pharisee's. Pray this, say this. Alot like the Muslims do with Islam. They are playing a part by performing this prayer or this fast BUT God has turned His back on them and does not know them.

[Naaji]

Thats your opinion, and your entitled to it, i will pray for you my friend, that allah does not punish you too much in the hell-fire, and that you may one day realise the truth.

[carol_au]

On the contray Josh, God had not turned his back on anyone.. except those who choose to harden their heart to Him. The Bible .. Old and New Testament is full of the patienceand love of God dealing with both Israel in the Old Testament and Christians in the New Testament.. and non believers in both Testaments. The same God who told Abraham that for the sake of 1 righeous man he would spare judgement on a city, is the same God who in Revelation constantly strives with man in order that they might repent and find life. Notice it's not God who refuses to come to man.. it's man who refuses to come to God " God promises, "if you seek me you will find me, if you search for me with all your heart."

What Naaij is seeking is a relationship with God. In the Christianity he has known, he has never found God, because he never found a relationship with him through Jesus Christ. In his search for God, he has found a "relationship of sorts" through following the tenants of Islam. Imagine, how that relationship would be enhanced if he could find it not just a religion but a relationship with the author and creator of true Faith.

God never turns His back on His own.. he goes looking for them and brings them back to Himself. As David found in Psalm 139 "where can I go from your spiriit.."

Naaij, you mentioned in your post about Revelation being end time prophecy.. and so it is. Yet, it's central figure, the one who has tha only authority to open the scroll is Jesus Christ Himself..

So many thousands of years (at least 2 thousand upto this present time) existss between his first and second comings.. yet this same Jesus is shown as worshipped by Angels and by mankind then not on earth, but in heaven and saved out of a terrible time of tribulation on the earth.

This same Jesus who warns of what will happen in the days leading up to his second and final coming.. says to true believers everywhere.... "I am coming soon".

There is another stage in human religious history.. it didn't end with the quran.. it will end when every eye on earth shall see and bow down and worship and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father

Time doesn't allow me to find the bible verses to support all this.. but if anyone would like them please feel free to ask and I'll post them later.

Carol_au

[Naaji]

As muslims we agree with the christians, jesus (pbuh) will come again! but not as a prophet, muhammad (saw) was the last prophet. Jesus(pbuh) will come and save us from the dajjal (anti christ, or beast), and after this the world will accept the religion of god, jesus will die a natural earthly death and then armageddon will come, showing the day of judgement, when we will stand trial before our god.

[Twohumble]

1. First born was used as a means of denoting authority. In the Old Test, prophets were accorded the term "first born" of a particular father "Jacob was first born of Isaac". Even when they were not the 'literal 1st born'. Why? Jesus was "FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION" . This is significantly different than the terms used by and of prophets. The scripture gives Jesus AUTHORITY OVER ALL CREATION. That is the manner of interpretation of that phrase.

2. Jesus is Son of God. There are different meaning to that term from Old test to New test. In the New Test, we see that mankind is "ADOPTED INTO SONSHIP" while Jesus was the "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD".
What does it mean to be "begotten"? Well, like begets like...you beget a human but create a robot. God begets God, who had no beginning ,and always was...Jesus uses the term Son of God in a relational, not literal term. He is made of the SAME STUFF as God...just as your children are made of the SAME STUFF as you.

3. Many verses demonstate that Jesus was God incarnate...willingly shedding the God mantle as a sacrafice for our sins. Old testament clearly predicts Gods coming in human form (Isaiah 9) Muslims just cannot believe that due to the brain washing received in there education ...that unfortunately is a symptom of the deceipt of the evil one.

[twohumble]

Carol..on the contrary...I agree with Josh.
Did Pharaoh harden his heart?? NO. God hardened his heart.

Carol, you are negating the doctrine of election and Gods sovereignty.

You may want to rethink that ...I recommend RC Sprouls book entitled
"Gods Will"

[Guest]

God is an example of God from OT
Jesus is an example of Jesus from the Gospel in NT
Paul is an example of the Comforter (Holy Spirit) from the NT

Would seem Muslims are very confused!

All 3.... God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit(The Word) are 1

[Guest]

No, on the contrary, I am not negating the doctrine of election and God's Soverignity,... the doctrine in itself opens up a new thread outside the discussion that naaji and I were having. However, since you have raised the subject, let me first address the reason WHY God hardened Pharoh's heart and I'm using Romans 9 for the answer to this

The early verses show the development of God's dealings with Isreal and it's role as the divinely elected nation..not the natural born Isreal, but those who are children of the promise (See Genesis 12).

In dealing with those who were "chosen" over others.. Paul asks "is God unjust" Romans 9:15 and He declares.. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion".. our total salvation is absolutely dependent on the grace and mercy of God, and the reason is.. that we will in no way boast that anything we have done has earned us our salvation.

But the very next verse.. 17 reveals the purpose for Pharoh's heart being hardened... "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth" (cf Exodus 9:16) From the moment of Abraham's calling.. God has shown Himself to be a God for all people's .. Christ's death on the cross was vicarious.. that is, it was meant for all people's and all His dealings with any people is that there would be people from every tribe, tongue nation and people group with Him in eternity.

God in His omniscience used Pharoh to display his power and His salvation... read what God said to Moses in Exodus 3:19 "I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go unless a mighty hand compels him."

Certainly, God did harden Pharoh's heart ..but Exodus 7:13 speaks of it being as much Pharoh's doing as God's.. vs 14 "Pharoh's heart is unyeilding ..he refuses let the people go" God did not harden Pharoh's heart until after Pharoh had already hardened his own heart. (compare with Romans 1:18 -32 (they knew God... they didn't acknowledge Him as God... their foolish hearts were darkened...therefore God gave them over to the sinful desires of their heart). and Exodus 5:2 "Who is the Lord that I should obey Him and let Isreal go? I do not know the Lord and I will not let Isreal go."

Once he had began the process in his own heart of hardening it to God then God began the process of hardening his heart. (Ex 7:3, 22 8:19)

The hardening of Pharoh's heart was as much about showing to Pharoh, the Egyptians and all the nations and even the Isrealites themselves, a demonstration of the power of God. Every plague was a demonstration of God being greater than every one of the Egyptian gods .. they were not random plagues.

All I have done in this post is try to address the subject of who hardened Pharoh's heart... The discussion on the Soverignity of God and free will is outside this thread and this forum. We could discuss it in another forum if you like.

my apologies to Naaji.. I'm enjoying our discussion and will answer your post later in my day,


Carol_au

[naaji]

unfortunately my guest friend, it is you as a christian who is confused. we dont know what jesus (pbuh) actually said, and ive proved before the holy spirit is not the comforter in the new testament (well ive done it twice now) you are relying on the facts of man and not the facts of god when you are reading the new testament.

[carol_au]

Naaji

God did tell us He was coming to earth in the form of a human. Please read Isaiah 9 and verse 6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given and the government shall be on his shoulders and notice the names this baby was given

Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Now meet Jesus in the Quran and the titles given to him by your prophet

Surah 4:171 states He is "the messiah, Jesus son of Mary" That same passage calls him THE word of God. For Muslims the eternal word of God appear in the form of the Quran. For Christians, the eternal word of God came to earth in the form of the God-Man .. The Lord Jesus Christ. (John1:1-4,14) so both the Quran and the New Testament point to Jesus being the Word of God.

The Quran also refers to Jesus in more ways than just in calling him another prophet. He is referred to as Spirit, Prophet, Apostle, Preeminent One, Example, Sinless one and Miracle worker. Your prophet affirmed the virgin birth of Christ.

It is also interesting to note that you are taught that Isa will return to earth and that this unique demonstration of power and authority is reserved only for him.

The same descriptions of Jesus you point out in the New Testament are the words of men only... are also repeated in the Quran. Even the way Jesus was to die is repeated in both the Quran and the Old Testament. Surah 3:55, 5:17 and 19:33 all mention the death of Jeus. In Isaiah 53 the Old Testament prophet describes in detail the death of the annointed one of God and it's purpose. Many other such verses point this out.. without even looking for the New Testament realisation of such prophesies.

A final word on the place of the Injil (Gospels) and their crediblity can also be foun din Surah 5:72 "Oh people of the Book, ye have no ground to stand on, until ye observe the Taurat ( Law) and the Injil (Gospels) and that which hath been sent down to you from your Lord".

Now finally.. considering the question was.. what place Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the Godhead... Isa the Eternal Word of God says of Himself...

I am the Way, the Truth and the Life No man comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6)

and of the Holy Spirit and God the Father and their relationship to Him...

"Father, the time has come glorify Your Son, that your Son might glorify you.. ( John 17:1) and "this is eternal life.. that they may know you, the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" ( John 17:3)

[twohumble]

Carol put it very well, naaji. Isaiah 9, Isaiah 53, and many others predict Jesus's coming. But, if you understand the covenant with Abraham that God made in Genesis, you will note that the punishment for breaking the covenent was to be paid ONLY BY GOD, and not by the people of Abraham. It was also a covenant that demanded payment and exactment of justice. The law that sin would mean (spiritual) death, needed to be fulfilled. No human can resurrect his own soul, That requires God. Yet, he is 100% just, so for justice to be done, the payment had to be collected. How do muslims pay for sin? By restitution, by ritual, by asking forgiveness, yet NONE of these things are sufficient. The penalty for sin is DEATH. The method of the Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, Buddists, Mormons...and all others falls short...ONLY GOD CAN RESTORE YOUR SALVATION, by paying the full dept for your sins.

When the covenant of splitting the animals in a ceremonial display indicating what would happen the one who broke the agreement...ONLY THE ESSENSE OF GOD passed through the split animals. In other words, God promised at that time to PERSONALLY PAY for the transgressions of His people. This is key to understanding salvation. God has promised to take upon His shoulders the punishment due us all.

Now, if Jesus were a man, He would not be able to be a serrogate sacrafice, since he was but human.....however, if he were God incarnate, He would be the PERFECT sacrafice once and for all for our sins, and salvation would be possible for all mankind.

Naaji, you have a limited understanding of Old Test prophesy, or you would be more familiar with the fact that the entire Old Test is a prelude to the coming of Jesus. It is from Him, and about Him.

This is the essence of the Gospel. This is what our Lord Jesus has commanded that we witness to all men. Please consider your need for Him very strongly.

[twohumble]

How may I respond to your earlier response. It was well put, but I have some questions for you. If this thread is not suitable, tell me where to go.

Thanks

[Naaji]

I agree with you, the original gospel was a book of god, brought through jesus(pbuh) but over the years it has AT LEAST been slightly changed. I also agree with you, isa (pbuh) is indeed a very special prophet!! The teachings of the christian church though are not representative of what jesus (pbuh) taught. Jesus (pbuh) never said he was god, there is a difference between messiah and god. indeed the quran says jesus(pbuh) was the messiah, BUT NEVER does it call him god. Jesus (pbuh) is gods word because he carries gods word, in the same way so did Muhammad (saw). Is it not concievable that the dueteronomy and isaiah prophecies are NOT talking about the same people, but that they are prophecies for two different prophets?? and at the same time is it not concievable that the words may have been altered to contain Might god, i myself would really love to see the original scripture, but unfortunately we cannot. I dont agree with you when you say the torah is from jesus (pbuh) and about him. Where is your evidence for this? if it was from jesus (pbuh) and about him, then all the jews in the world would be christian! Jesus (pbuh) wasnt a sacrifice for all our sins, he tells us himself he was a prophet only for the jews. Muhammad (saw) was from abrahams seed, he is from the linage of Ishmael (abrahams son).

'The penalty for sin is DEATH'

why?

For adams sin yes this is true, had he have not sinned he would have lived forever in the garden. our penalty for adams sin is that we will all die, but becasue we are not perfect and we will all sin in our life, repentance is enough, and on the say of judgement, allah will be the only one determining our fate.

'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life No man comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6)'

This does not say jesus is god and it doesnt say you have to believe in him as god to get to heaven, it says you have to believe in HIS teachings (not matthew mark luke john or paul's).

"Father, the time has come glorify Your Son, that your Son might glorify you.. ( John 17:1) and "this is eternal life.. that they may know you, the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3)

This verse above proves more for my arguement than it does for yours, jesus (pbuh)was the son of god, but only in the same way as we are all gods children, we were all created by Allah (swt). Jesus (pbuh) says himself, that they may know *YOU* the *ONE* true god, showing jesus (pbuh) was not a part of god, but a creation of his.

I dont believe the old testament is as corrupt as muslims make out. I dont believe that the sayings of jesus(pbuh) and his actions in the new testament are that corrupt, i believe that jesus' actuall sayings and actions were perfect, i do however believe the teachings of christianity are not representative of Jesus' (pbuh) teachings and that the teachings of paul are no where near what god wanted. I believe that christians are interpreting the words of Jesus (pbuh) incorrectly.

[logic]

Moses (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) were identical in the laws that they followed and preached. Jews and Muslims have many similarities. So should Christians. But, unfortunately, they have taken the teachings of man Paul as divine. More importantly, I can't remember who, but someone on this thread escalated the status of Paul to the Spirit of God. Not long ago, Jesus was considered as the Spirit of God. Before that he was God.. Previously to that he was a Prophet and the Messiah. Previous to that he was the Lord .. and before that he was the teacher. Where will it end? I would like someone to answer my question that I have posed in another thread.... would you believe me if I said I saw a vision of Jesus (pbuh) and he told me to spread his divine message that somewhat differs from Paul's original teachings... in that, if Jesus (pbuh) wants me to tell people that salvation is not through him but God alone? Would you believe me?? Why not??

[carol_au]

Hi .

How may I respond to your earlier response. It was well put, but I have some questions for you. If this thread is not suitable, tell me where to go.


Why don't we continue this discussion in the open forum. You open the topic and I'll keep watch for your response

Carol_au

[carol_au]

Naaji at least we are now finding common ground for our discussion and that is good

So now let us address the major differences.

You mentioned that the Gospels (injil) is at least partly distorted by translation. Problem is, assuming that to be true, neither you nor I know which parts have been distorted. We need to be careful in saying that, when the Scriptures themself assert that no part of God's word wll pass away until Heaven and Earth do.. and that hasn't happened yet. (Matthew 5:17)

Now, I know that in your own faith, there are issues which the Quran does not define resolutions for, and you use your prophets' life and informal sayings as the ultimate authority on those issues. (the hadiths) Even the Shari'a the Islamic law developed out Councils held to discuss these issues (in Sunni Islam between 750AD - 850 AD) ..man's interpretations of even your holy book.

Now I am also aware than Shi'ite Islam and possibly Sufi Islam, do not agree with all the hadiths, however, doesn't it even show that despite the high place of the Quaran, you also have men speaking and telling you of it's interpretation?

The Bible asserts that all parts of the Scriptures, which Christians believe to be the Old and New Testament were written as men were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Now, however you choose to view Him (and he is definitely not Paul logic.. Paul never believed himself anything other than a Jew touched by God through a very personal encounter with Jesus on the Road to Damascus) the Holy Spirit was as much sent by God as you believe the Angel Gabriel was in coming to Muhammmad with the message of Allah.

Islam believes the Quran to be the final word of God through the prophet, Both the Bible and the Quran call Jesus Christ "The Word of God" both pointing to the eternal nature of The Word of God.

Now notice the difference.. the Quran is essentially the product of one man. It's content spans approximately 20 years and with in a single cultural context. The Bible spans about 1500 years, was written in several different languages, by several different authors and in highly divergent cultures.

Now let's look at the central message of both ... the central message of the Quran is as I understand it is to develop the theological themes of God and judgement as well as detailed instructions for life and behaviour.

The Central message in the Bible could be considered with the same themes, but there are two major differences... in the Quran the basis of judgement is a sincere submission to the Allah's will. Even sincere Christians and Jews who live by the obligations of Allah MAY enter heaven.
Islam focuses on heaven as a reward and hell as a punishment, but confession of faith to Islam is only the first step in a life that might eventually be rewarded in heaven.

Christianity and the Bible however states differently... Christians who are truly born again know they are heaven bound. Even the believers of old.. Hebrews 11 talks of the faith that "saved" the OT believers who were looking for what they hoped for but could not see" ( Hebrews 12:1) . The Jews have always believed their Messiah would come. Many Messianic Christian Jews have found that in Jesus Christ, all the prophets foretold and they were expecting has been fulfilled.

Galations 4:4 states "when the fulnesss of time had come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under law to redeem those under Law that we might receive the full rights as sons." Jesus Himself asserted "I have come to fulfil the Law not to abolish it ... Matthew ) and He Himself asserted it again in Luke 4:34 "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing" concerning OT prophecy about His coming. (cf Isaiah 61:1-2)

For the Christian, there is the very definite knowledge that EVERY sin is forgiven, there is no longer need to try and become acceptable to God, no requirement to earn salvation by doing anything. (mind you, the true believer is so in love with God, they do it because they want to obey him, not out of the consequences of not obeying him (Romans 8.. the entire chapter)

Now.. how do we know that Jesus's death was for all people? Let's look first at Gen 12: 1-3. Abraham was told he was to be the father of many nations.. and from him came the lines of Isaac and Ishmael. But was this the father hood that God was speaking of? No, it's all true born again believers from all nations. Jesus himself says that in John 3:16... "God so loved the world" and again in Matthew 28: 18 - 20. He gave the Great Commission to His Disciples.. to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations" The word used here in the Greek is ethne meaning people groups... so it's not even enough to have a country call itself a Christian country.. even the smallest people group is loved and known by God and salvation offered to them.

Now finally in answer to your post.. even if we both agree to disagree over whether or not Jesus is God come in the flesh... to save us only as a human could have done (Galations 4:4) and if we accept what Logic says about the fact that Christians should accept Jesus's teachings and not those of the writers of the New Testament.. then it still brings us to the same conclusion... outside of Christ and His death on the cross, there is no forgiveness for sins. (Romans)

[Naaji]

Im sorry but that last quote is the opinion of a man and i cannot accept the opinions of a "self appionted" comforter under Paul, they are not jesus' (pbuh) words. Yes god loved all the world! as muslims we believe that there have been thousands of prophets, and there has been at least one set to every community, but we dont see them today because of the way they have been persecuted of not accepted by their people. the fact that god loved the world doesnt mean that jesus (pbuh) came as a saviour for all of us though, he even say himelf i am come only for the jews (i cant remember which verse that is, ill find out later).

The quran spans a period of time since the creation of the earth, since god has allways had it in his knowledge, but could only send it to us when we were ready to recieve it. The quran is not written by one man (muhammad(pbuh) was illiterate) it was writeen by one god. Ill have to reply to the rest of your post later, ive gotta go to college now so in about 7 hours ill post again.

[carol_au]

Naaji

After I sent that mail I realised given this forum and it's feeling towards Paul that Romans was not the best example to use as a means of saying Jesus is Saviour of all mankind. My apologies.. I too was on my way out when I sent that mail.

So let me keep all our discussions within the Gospels and the Old Testament from now on.. and even the words of Jesus Himself only. There are plenty of indictions that Jesus Himself said He came for the whole world.

The best example of this is found in John 4 and the incident of Jesus speaking to the woman of Samaria.

Jesus chose to go through Samaria in order to travel from Judea to Galilee. He then went to get a drink from the well. He went at about the 6th hour, which is not the usual time that the women drew water. He then broke rules of social etiquette by talking to the woman who was also a Samarian. That this was not the normal is seen not only in knowledge of the thoughts at the time but in the words of the woman to Jesus herself.. "you are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink? (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.) Vs9.

Jesus replied to her.. "If you knew the gift of God and who it is who asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." There is then a discussion over who Jesus is and Jesus answered her "Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him like a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Then Jesus tells this stranger all about her life and her "sins". The woman says to him "I can see you are a prophet" she then describes the differences between the Jewish and the Samaritan place of worship, to which Jesus replies to her "A time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth." The woman then speaks of the promised Messiah (called Christ) who is coming and will explain everything to us. Jesus declared "I WHO SPEAK TO YOU AM HE!

Later when many in her village became believers they said "now we believe.. not based on the words you said, but because we have heard for ourselves and we KNOW thiss man really is the Saviour of the world.

Jesus later in the same Gospel was discussing with the Jews the about who he was. John 8:48. ) In the course of the discussion, He made His clearest and most definite claim to Deity... He said "Your Father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day, he saw it and was glad." They asked him.. "you are not yet 50 years old and yet you have seen Abraham" Jesus then used the name for Himself that Jews reserve only for God "I AM" The Jews knew what that claim meant, for they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself and slipped from their midst. In chapter 10, the Jews said to Him " we are not stoning you (for the miracles), but for blasphemy, that you a mere man claim to be God." (vs 33)

Finally look in Mark 13 and the discussion on the end times. Jesus said "many will come in my name claiming I am He" and will deceive many (Logic my answer to your question in your post re an appearance of Jesus is answered in this verse.. I would not believe any one claiming to be Jesus yet not being consistent with what I know of Him in the Bible). After discussing what will happen in the world in the end times, He then declares He will send His angels to the four winds to collect the elect. In Matthew 24 the when this will happen is declared vs 14 "and this Gospel will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come".

At the Judgement seat as described by Jesus in Matthew 25 and after the Son of Man has come in all His Glory (vs 31) then ALL the nations will be gathered before Him" (Vs32)

His Great Commission as described in Matthew 28: 18 -20 iss His declaration that ALL authority in Heaven and Earth has been given to Him, and that His Followers were to go into ALL the world and make Disciples of ALL nations, baptising them in THE NAME (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

and in Mark 7 Jesus spoke to the Syro-Phonecian woman "first let the children eat all they want." For her reply He gave her what she asked for
Jesus came not only to give eternal life to the Jews,(through whom he has chosen to work and bring the saviour into the world) but for all the world. and that includes you and me

[Naaji]

In understand this from these verses Jesus is saying he is a saviour for all, and it sounds like he is saying he is god, although still he does not say "I AM GOD" the thing is though, as ive set out my arguements before these are reports of events from jesus' (pbuh) followers, who would want to exaggerate his position because of their claim and bias, there writings are from their own hearts and are only inspired, god never told them what to write, and they never recieved the holy spirit with which they could write them. If these were the actual words of jesus (pbuh) written by him, and with proofs within the text (sceintific grammatical evidence etc.), then i would have to accept it. But god sent us the Qur'an to put us right, and show us that jesus(pbuh) wasnt god, but another prophet, the quran is more divine in nature than the bible, so i will trust that before any other book in the world. Also yes we follow the hadith, but theses are not Muhammads (pbuh) opinions, they are from the knowledge of god. God flooded Muhammad (pbuh) with knowledge so he might help us all, when muhammad (pbuh) spoke, his source of information was ultimately god.

[Guest]

I understand that you, carol, believe the Bilble do be the literal word of God? Am I right? You also beleive that God sent many holy revelations unto mankind via Messengers, I assume? Do you believe that the The Qu'ran is not one of the Holy revelations, despite claims of it being in its purest form since first written? If so, what are your justifications? Please dont simply give me biblical quotes to justify your denial of Islam. I am interested in specific reasons why you believe that an illiterate man called Muhammad (pbuh), more than 1400 thousand years ago, who was named the Trustworthy one by his people before he claimed Prophethood was lying? Also, how do you explain scientific truths that found their way in the Qur'an even before experimental discovery by man? Here, I am not suggesting that previos Holy revelations did not contain such amazing material, rather, if you believe Muhammad was a liar, then why do you think there are so many scientific truths in the Quran?

[Logic]

I understand that you, carol, believe the Bilble do be the literal word of God? Am I right? You also beleive that God sent many holy revelations unto mankind via Messengers, I assume? Do you believe that the The Qu'ran is not one of the Holy revelations, despite claims of it being in its purest form since first written? If so, what are your justifications? Please dont simply give me biblical quotes to justify your denial of Islam. I am interested in specific reasons why you believe that an illiterate man called Muhammad (pbuh), more than 1400 thousand years ago, who was named the Trustworthy one by his people before he claimed Prophethood was lying? Also, how do you explain scientific truths that found their way in the Qur'an even before experimental discovery by man? Here, I am not suggesting that previos Holy revelations did not contain such amazing material, rather, if you believe Muhammad was a liar, then why do you think there are so many scientific truths in the Quran?

[twohumble]

1st.. Pauls teachings and life are INTRICATELY tied, historically and otherwise with the true Gospel...I have every confidence that Pauls writings are inspired. If you were to tell me you had a vision different than the Gospel, or Pauls writings, I would not doubt you, but I would be very sceptical of the source of the vision...the evil one deceives by many means, and false visions would not be beyond him at all..don't be deceived by false prophets...since the word of God is immutable (even by your Qu'ran's say) I know that the Gospel is not changed or corrupted and I know that Jesus never claimed to be a prophet, He claimed to be God and the One True Way to salvation ...any visions that differ would remind me of a clear demonic visitation. Be careful.

[twohumble]

Logic...you claim that the Qu'ran is inspired due to the number of scientific facts...and I will grant you there are some....but there are also clear contradictions and mistakes....

Do you not believe the evil one can "reveal science" in a corrupt text?

Of course he can...

The Bible also contains miraculous scientific revelations...but no contraditions or mistakes (not to confuse with mistakes in translation that have been corrected by better scholarship, such as numbers of chariots in Kings) This is not a mistake in scripture, but in translation.

Since the Bible has many extent manuscripts from numourous sources, we can always check on the reliability of our text...you cannot do so with your scripture, since the muslims burned all other copies they did not like...therefore no collaborative evidence for your text exists...whereas the old and new testament have more extent manuscripts of good quality to check all translations and with better scholorship , any mistranslations have been corrected in modern translations.

[twohumble]

Naaji, and logic

You have both said that the scripture is changed...yet your scripture references ours and NEVER says its changed....in fact it says NONE OF GODS WORDS CAN BE CHANGED!! Why then do u doubt your own scripture? It tells you that Injil was God breathed, and as such is Gods own words. It also tells you that NO MAN CAN CHANGE what God writes. You contradict yourselves here.

Also, Logic, you have claimed that the Moses, Mohommad, Jesus were the same under the law. That is pure silly. Mohammads life is full of questionable behavior...marrying a 9 yr old! Getting her pregnant a few years later, marrying 11 wives...justify this anyway you want, but Jesus NEVER even bent a moral or ethical law ...PERIOD ...they are not even close to being equal.

Interesting how the Qu'ran refers to Jesus vs. Mohammad...even your own scripture gives Jesus a higher standing than the prophet you say has the "real" story.

Look at the facts
1. Man makes up a story of heaven...Girls, and sex are a BIG part of the story. but NO MAN MAKES UP A STORY OF HEAVEN THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE SEX....NO MAN!! Point against the truth of the Quran..point for the truth of bible.
2. Man makes up a story with hereo's and legendary figures, of course man would not want to point to the flaws in their legends, in fact they will be perfect or real close. .....NO MAN MAKES UP A STORY ABOUT ITS LEGENDS AND POINTS OUT ALL THEIR FAULTS....2 points against Quran, 2 points for Bible
3. If man were to make up a story about who God was, making Him humble and a sacrafice is the LAST THING SOMEONE WOULD MAKE UP ..BIBLE 3POINTS TO QURAN -2...FIVE POINTS IN LOGICAL DIFFERENCE
Conclusion: Nothing in Biblical scripture smacks of legend or man made garbage. The entire story in the Quran seems to be MAN MADE from the get go...now don't get me wrong....I think the Quran has some inspired scripture in it..but its inspired by the prince of deceipt to keep people from the Truth...you see, its more fun to believe in what we can understand (heaven with virgins) than what we do not know, and its easier to believe in a conquering hero than a sacraficial God. But just cause its easier to believe it doesn't make it so, in fact I would argue that it makes it LESS likely....think about it.

[twohumble]

one more thing....

Scientifice evidence?? Surah23:14 says humans are formed from a clot of blood??

Makes absolutely NO SENSE...one of many area's of questionable information. Blood is a intrigal part of a living organism...specifically of a human...dirt or clay containts organic information, but is not human...God takes what is "non-human and makes it human" He certainly doesn't take blood from where? and make man..

Now, if the evil one was writing this, I understand why he says blood.

All is clear if we consider the source.

[carol_au]

Naaji and Logic,

One thing we all agree on is that we want to hear and believe God's unaltered and unchanged word. We all want to acknowledge and glorify Him as God and give Him His rightful place as Creator and as the One True God in the Universe.

However, in your desire to protect God's word do you realise that you have done the same you claim that Christians have done? You believe that God's unaltered and unchanged speech came to Mohammed and you believe that this is shown in that he in his illiterate state couldnot have written the Quran, but must have received it as a direct revelation from God.

What you have done, is determined that the Quran is an incarnation of God's word.. and therefore one of His attributes.. His speech. In other words, in order to hear and understand God, you believe He gave you His Word.. His Speech incarnated in the form of Quran.

Now if God for whom all things are possible could send His speech to the earth, in such a way that we could read and understand it .. could He not also incarnate that Word (and therefore Himself) in the form of a human and live on the earth? .. and since we both believe that both God and His Word are eternal, does that not mean that as you believe the Quran to be above changing and the revelation of God, cannot Christ, the eternal Word and the I am of God also be a revelation of the eternal word of God?

It's not a case of the Church turning a man into a god, but God himself using His own creation to reveal Himself fully. You see, we are both discussing the same thing here.. The fact that God's word is eternal, and that God has saught to make that Word known to us.. to you it's through the Quran, to us it's through Jesus Christ the Word of God.

Now, the arguement that follows is this.. since we both believe that God has chosen to reveal and give us His Word, it also stands to reason that there is a need for man to hear God's word and to get to know Him personally.. a bridging of the gap between man and God. Why else would He send His Word to the earth unlesss there is a very important message we all need to hear, whether Jew, Muslim or Christian?

If we only had a book.. be it the Quran or the Bible (even just the Torah, the prophets, and the Injil) all of us, Muslim and Christian would still only know about God. All of us would know of Him, we would believe in Him, but we would never KNOW Him.

You only know me from what I write to this forum. You know my name, where I live and you know my faith. You are probably getting a feeling for the sort of person I am based on how I write. If however, I was to come to your country, and live like you and befriend you I would get to know you and you would get to know me fully and completely. Infact it' s the only way you would really get to know me properly, because my actions will always speak louder than my words. My words are always open to different interpretation depending on how they are read, but if I am there with you, no would can misinterpret them.

So it is with Jesus Christ.. the Eternal Word of God for both Muslim and Christian. God come in the flesh, in order to fully reveal God to us. Jesus said to the Disciples who asked Him to show them the Father "If you have seen me you have seen the Father also" (John 14:9 -11) "The Words I say to you are not my own, Rather it is the Father living in me who is doing His work. Believe me when I say I am in the Father and Father is in me."

There is only one question that any of of us need ask therefore whether we want to accept Jesus as God come in the Flesh or not.. whether we want to accept the Quran as His Revelation or not (and Logic, there are many more evidences for the scientific and archological support of the Bible.. even the letters of Paul and the Apostles which I know you do not accept as Revelation) . Time does not permit me to show you these, but I will do so tomorrow if you are interested.) and that is... Why did He send His word to us anyway? I can answer only with His own words in John 3:16 -18

For God so loved the World He gave His only son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever belives in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in Him stands condemned already, because he does not believe in the Name of God's One and Only son.

Why do you say He gave us His word?

[BeBe]

[Naaji]

Sorry but i dont think jesus (pbuh) came to earth so that we could knpow god as a person, he was only around for under 40 years, and so he only revealed himself to a limited number of people, for us all to know him, he must visit us all.

[BeBe]

[twohumble]

In this forum of Jesus vs. Paul, what is your beef with Paul? Is it that his epistles explain in detail the meaning of Christ as He relates to both the Old and New Test's? In fact, is your problem with Paul not based in the fact that he clearly defines Jesus, His role, and His teaching, which are in direct conflict with your beliefs? I think that is indeed your problem with Paul.

The facts are: Paul lived contemporaniously to the Apostles, he new them, and they in fact deferred to his teachings on some points, Paul died for preaching the Gospel (who would die for a lie?), Paul was accepted by churches throughout the region, and was looked to as the one who would instruct and build the faith. Historians, both Christian and otherwise, have well documented both the authenticity of his writings and his life. How you can dispute his historical relavence is beyond me...you only disagree with Paul because he contradicts your beliefs, not on any sound grounds.

If I am wrong, point out on what grounds you disagree with him (other than your "beliefs")

[BeBe]

[BeBe]

[twohumble]

Ritual and legalizm rules the Muslim way...Paul talked about that, and that must be one of the reasons this thread is so popular. Paul decryed the idea that salvation is obtained by works or "laws". On the other hand, the Muslim's seem to think that their legalism makes up for a life of sin.

I am not saying they are innately more sinful than any other culture, they are not. All people are innately selfish and live by "what is in their own interests",and not God's best interest. If the Muslims would be honest about that, they would realize that no amount of prayer will change their need for a savior, since they fall WAY short of the perfection that God requires to be in His presence.

Somehow, the idea of "doing it yourself" which is, by the way, one of the primary tenants of satanism, will never get you to a point of salvation.

So, bend, pray, pilgramage, fast, and the rest all you want....but the point is, none of that is sufficient for salvation, and you are not capable of it on your own. God requires perfection, nothing less can stand in His presence....only the Blood of Christ can accomplish that for us....so , reject the sacrafice of He who died for you, and He will also reject you before the Father.

Think-a-bout-it

[Naaji]

Dont the jews pray facing jerusalem!? ill find you a verse from the bible to back it up.

[twohumble]

no, they don't..good luck finding the verse....not there.

[BeBe]

AMEN! twohumble! Ritual legalism is not the way to God's heart!

[Alpha]

Naaji, how many times do we have to say you have to take Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and then you can do good works. Your good works mean nothing unless you first accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and not as a prophet. Jesus made it clear that He was more than a prophet when He asked his desciples who others thought He was. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."(Matthew 16:13-14). When Jesus asked them, who do you think I am, Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."(Verse 16). "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven."(Verse 17).

[Naaji]

The quran doenst say you go to heaven to have sex with women, it says there are chaste untouched women there, that is all, it doesnt tell us we are going to have sex with them, it doesnt even imply that! Twohuble, i was asking, i was SAYING that the Jews do pray facing Jerusalem, not exclusively but they allways pray facing a holy place. i think it was you alpha who said that you are not a believer if you dont do good works, you dont understand my arguement, you believe belief saves you direcetly, but that you must do good works as a believer, if you dont do good works you get rewards etc taken away. Im still looking for that quote but i will get it, there is something where someone banned payer? and the guy opened up a window so he could pray towards the holy city..... risking his life to do so.. ill have to find the verse :S Alpha....

[Naaji]

I can find you a reference from renound science for that. Ill give you the author and the book name for proof so you can look it up yourself if you like.
Mat 7:16 'Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.'

This is jesus (pbuh) test of a prophet, a bad prophet will make false prophecies, none of the prophecies in the qur'an have been wrong. And by this test we can see that in order to be a good prophet all you have to do is say ONE true prophecy, because as we can see above, a false prophet can make NO true prophecy, also a false prophet can bring forth no good fruit. Apparently the fruits of your bible are good. there are many things in the bible that are the same as in the Qur'an.

[twohumble]

Naaji you are wrong on so many points my friend, I only hope and pray you are a big enough person to listen to reason.

First, I am a physician, and have studied embryology for many hours, and your comparison of the blood clot is just plane off...how did you put it? SO THERE??

Second, to be a good prophet, you DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE ONE GOOD PROPHECY...ALL YOUR PROPHESY MUST BE 100% CORRECT, PERIOD. Even the Evil one makes prophesy that is right sometime, but a prophet from God is NEVER wrong.

In regard to Paul, NOTHING he says in his epistles contradicts the gospels, he died for what he saw and what God told him to preach, should I believe him, or the Quran??? NO COMPARISON MY FRIEND.. PAUL WINS HANDS DOWN. You don't like his teaching because it refutes your beliefs, but that is not a sound basis to reject his writings as uninspired works. Paul claims they are inspired, the apostles put their trust in him, and his teachings are consistent with all of scripture...conclusion is inescapable...DIVINELY INSPIRED.

[twohumble]

Oh ya, by the way, the passage about the fruit did not deal AT ALL with prophets, but with people that are spririt filled vs those that are not...those that the Holy Spirit fills after they accept Jesus. The Holy Spirit conforms the believer into the image of Jesus, and works follow..that is the fruit, the works that spring from a spirit filled life. Not works based in obligation or fear of "not living up to standards" but works done out of love for the Father.

As far as the Quran not being wrong on any prophesy, I absolutely disagree with that...there are a number of scholarly works I would suggest you look up to see for yourself all of the contradictions and mistakes within the Quran...it is riddled with them my friend...please see the Truth and realize who your God really is....give up this false need to ritualize worship and develope a true relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ, the only BEGOTTEN SON OF THE FATHER.

[BeBe]

Anyone that claims Paul was at odds with Jesus will have to prove that the whole church was at odds with Jesus. If you will read Galatians 2:1-2, 9, 10..Acts 21:17-20..and 2Peter 3:15-16, you will see that Paul was given the right hand of fellowship, was recieved warmly, and was referred to by Peter as "our dear brother."

Paul's preaching was not at odds with Jesus or the other Apostles.

[Logic]

To twoHumble.. you are wrong and rejcting what is said in the bible.. Jesus (pbuh) was not the only Begotten son of God.. David is described as the begotten son of God as well.. you are not going to now tell me David was or is God also! If you want I can post the relevant quote. Also, you said that versions of the Quran were burned. I have heard words to this effect, however, the versions of the Quran were burnt as people started writing their own personal versions.. in that.. they had begun to write the Arabic in their own dialect that differed to the dialect that was revealed in Mecca. That is why there are spelling errors that still exist in every single Quran as they were written once and NEVER ALTERED!!! And thus, the destruction of other versions of the Quran preserved the 100% authenticity of the Holy Book that we have today. If only the Christians were not so lax over the additions, deletions and alterations of the Holy Injeel, we would have an authentic revelation from God to Jesus (pbuh) not from Jesus (pbuh) to Paul! Just in case,you have overlooked the well-known fact that there are still 2 hidden Gospels written by the early Christians as they are not in tune with the teachings of Paul...ie.the trinity, resurrection after death.

TwuHumble or a Christian on this site also said that Jesus (pbuh) was not A Prophet at all but God alone. This is the most absurd thing I have heard from a Christian in light of Deutronomy 18:18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee.."

If Jesus (pbuh) is not a Prophet then who was God talking about in this verse???!!!!

Also Jesus (pbuh) has been described as the servant of God in the Bible more than once.. he has also been described as a Prophet who prayed to God.. NOT TO HIMSELF!!

He was also not a universal prophet.. His mission was not universal.. He specifically came to the Jewish.. So please dont blatantly lie about the mission of Jesus (pbuh) by saying he was God and saviour for all.

Talking about good works, good works are necessary to show your commitment to God. Good works were both preached and practiced by all prophets even jesus (pbuh) himself. Also, I think it was TwoTumble, could be someone else, said that I was attacking the the authenticity of Pauls visions because it did not agree with my own beliefs. You are right in the fact that paul is in my opinion both anti-Christianity and anti-Islam. If you compare the acts and beliefs of Moses (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) they are more like each others and Paul is the odd one out. You fail to inform us Muslims why Paul was regarded as such an authentic source of God. Even you have to admit he was not a Prophet. The same way you wouldn't believe a Muslim if they claimed to have a vision of Jesus (pbuh), why have you attached such importance to the words of Paul.. After all he was anti_Jesus (pbuh) and claims to have converted upon the so-called vision.

Inshallah (if God wills...yet another proof of Muslims following the teaching of Jesus (pbuh) more than his so-called Christians,,, Jesus (pbuh) taught us to say inshallah!!), when he comes again I sincerely hope both Muslims and Christians dont reject him!

Ameen!!

[Logic]

Also,I forgot to mention in my earlier post.... Muhammad (pbuh) did not marry Aisha when she was 9 but 19!! And did not get engaged to her when she was 6, rather 16!!! This is the number one issue that anti-Islamic people feed on to justify their hatred of the religion.. Ican provide both hadithic evidence to prove that marrying Aisha at 9 and engaging her at 6 is an accidental mistake that can be resolved if the hadiths are studied carefully. Something I suggest Christians do to resolve contradictory verses in the Bible.. Maybe this will be a good starting point !!

[naaji]

lol, i didnt say Muhammad(pbuh) made only one correct prophecy! on the contrary, muhammad (pbuh) made no prophecy! it was allah who made the prophecies! there is more scientific evidence and more prophecies that have come true in the Qur'an than the bible. i dont beleive you when you say that you have studied embryology, i will give you the book reference, but i have to find it first, so you can look it up yourself.

[BeBe]

[Logic]

Long before Jesus (pbuh) was born, God said to David (Psalm 2:7): "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David}, Thou art my son; this day have i begotten thee."

How can this be referring to Jesus (pbuh) when this occurred way before Jesus (pbuh) was even before. Which book is Psalm from. the OT or the NT?

[Naaji]

What are you talking about twohumble!?! you have no knowledge of the scripture obviously!!

[Naaji]

Think i'll take the opportunity to really RAM HOME the fact that MATT 7 talks about prophets and not 'people that are spririt filled'

'Beware of false PROPHETS, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.'

Hmm class lets not take note of the word PROPHETS!!! this passage cannot passage therefore cannot be about prophets because at the start it says it is about prophets!!! according to twohumble prophets are not prophets! cause afterall 'the passage about the fruit did not deal AT ALL with prophets'.

Which should we trust... mans interpretation of the scripture, or the word our lord has sent to us direct!

[BeBe]

[twohumble]

naaji...

"ye shall know them by their fruits" This fruits refers to their actions, not their prophesy...come on now naaji don't be absurd here...the entire passage discusses the revelation of peoples hearts (be they for God or the evil one) by their actions or behavior....it does not refer to the actual prophesy at all...I know u are smarter than this.

[twohumble]

oh, and another thing...

That passage is not about prophets...ITS ABOUT FALSE PROPHETS.....u know those guys...the ones who cut your head off if you refuse to believe what they tell you, and behave like the evil one himself!! Logic tries to refute historical fact regarding the wives of Mohammad....it has been verified outside of Muslim writings yet he insists that muslim haddid (sp?) can explain this with closer study...

I can refer you to liturature OUTSIDE of Christian circles that authenticate our gospels origin and test it by MANY EXISTING EXTENT MANUSCRIPTS....of course, the Quran burned any early writings so we really cannot tell what is authentic or forged...but then again, it seems its all forged by man since the entire story is riddled with mistakes and contradictions.

You must come to understand Naaji, that this passage clearly talks about FALSE PROPHETS, not TRUE PROPHETS, and as such it is not about Prophecy at all...its about how to judge when someone leads you astray..

Let me give you an example: When someone destroys any historical evidence to verify the source of the manuscripts authenticity VS. where God has maintained many early manuscripts so we may have FULL CONFIDENCE ON OUR SCRIPTURE....like the Bible says (and not your text) TEST ALL THINGS...you see, God wants us to KNOW what is true...not guess on FAITH THAT IS BLIND...but FAITH THAT HAS EVIDENCE!!

I am sure you can see the LOGIC in that.

[twohumble]

[quote="Logic"]Long before Jesus (pbuh) was born, God said to David (Psalm 2:7): "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David}, Thou art my son; this day have i begotten thee."

Very interesting Logic.... I really like how you have MISLEADINGLY inserted (David) into that passage.

If you understood psalms at all, you would know that David was a forerunner and a shadow of what the Almight King would be...NEVER was David mentioned in this ENTIRE Psalm!!! If you read it in its entirety you would know that it could NOTHING OTHER THAN A DIRECT PROPHECY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!!

For instance.."do homage to the Son" do we pay homage to any but God?? NO

" how blessed are we who take refuge in Him" ....u got it dude..Jesus again

".....I will surely give the nations as your inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as your possesion" COME ON LOGIC...USE SOME...THIS IS ALL IN PSALM 2....ITS CLEARLY FOLLOWS ALL THE PROPHESY OF JESUS THE 1ST BORN OF ALL CREATION...DAVID DID NOT RULE ALL THE NATIONS TO THE END OF THE EARTH DID HE???????

Don't read into scripture that which is not there...such as inserting at your own interpretation that the verse you quoted was about David, it was NOT....no way....that is heretical interpretation at its best....I know once you have read it again you willl see, as long as the evil one has not blinded you, because you are obviously too smart to be fooled by the Prince of Lies for too long...come on Logic...I know you will come around!

PS Naaji asked earlier if we should trust the interpetation of man, or Gods revealed word. I suggest we trust Gods revealed word, and its contained in the Bible. If you read Psalm 2 or 22 or any other, you will see that your interpretation falls way short of what is written, and we need to trust the Word rather than mans interp (like you tried to proffer)

[carol_au]

Greetings everyone,

Situations beyond my control have left me unable to have time to answer posts in the past day or so.. but i've followed the discussion with interest.

Naaji, I know which passages you are referring to I think when you say that the Jews face Jerusaleum to pray. If I am not mistaken, that is found in Daniel 6. The Jews had been taken into exile out of Israel and were now in Babyon.

Daniel had been put into a position of authority by the previous king, out of respect for his ability to interpret Nebuchudnezzers dreams, something the other astrologers and magicians had been unable to do. Miracles had happened ( the three young men had been spared in the firey furnance ..and a vision of a 4th man seen in that same furnace who "looked like the sons of god".. most people believe this to a Theophany.. appearance of God in human form, which is seen often in the Old Testament".. ie Jesus before His human birth appeared as a man in many OT passages).

Now the new King Dairus, under the influence of some of his officials, put out a decree that anyone who prayed to any god or man during the next 30 days would be thrown in the lions den.

Immediately the decree was put out.. Daniel went straight to his room, where the windows "opened to Jerusalem" and prayed three times a day, giving thanks to His God, just as He had done before".

Later Dairus, has no choice, despite having deep respect for Daniel, has to throw him in the Lions Den. Daniel is of course saved and God is glorified once again.

Now why did Daniel fact Jerusaleum to pray? Perhaps a good place to find the answer for this apart from the historical significance.. it was the place of hope.. it was the capital city and represtentative of home for the Jews in exile, and it was the place to focus worship... John 4 states the woman of Samaria saying "our Fathers worshipped on this mountain ( where Abraham offered his son as a sacrifice) and you Jews claim that place we must worship is in Jerusalem" She was of course pointing to the Temple.

Notice though, Jesus's answer to her.. " Believe me woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain or in Jerusalem. .. A time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the father in spirit and in truth."

Now why did God give Solomon directions on how to build the Temple? The Temple was to be symbol of God's presence on earth. David had long wanted.. yearned to build the temple.. " as a place of rest for the Ark of the Covenant (the symbol of God's covenat with man and of His presence on the earth amongst men), for the foot stall of our God". God told David that He would not be the one to build the Temple, but that His son Solomon would.

Now look in 2 Chronicles 6 During His prayer of dediction , Solomon reminds God of His promise to David, that David's kingom would be forever established. This sounds like a human king.. but note in vs 18 what Solomon asks

"WILL GOD REALLY DWELL ON EARTH AMONG MEN" The entire chapter then discusses the role of the Temple, the way it will be a symbol of God's presence on the earth to all nations (not just the jews) and it will be a place where they would find forgiveness for sins and hope.

Vs 38 is prophetic... "and when they are given over to an ememy who takes them captive to a land faraway and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive and repent and plead..... and pray towards that city you have chosen and to the temple that I have built to your Name, then hear their pleas, uphold their cause and forgive your people who have sinned against you.

Daniel knowing the scriptures was obedient to this and faced Jerusalem to pray. It was the Temple.. the dwelling place of God on earth and represented His presence, and His forgiveness and His peace.

Jesus told the woman at the Well that oneday there would be no need to face Jerusalem because oneday the true worshippers of God would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. The woman immediately knew he was speaking of the long awaited Messiah that all Jews waited for and that when he came, he would explain it all clearly. Jesus then asserts.. " I who speak to you am he".

Once Jesus.. the God-Man came to earth there is no longer a need for the Temple ... His death on the cross finished the need for the elaborate sacrificial system that was set up by God inorder to help the Jews know a sense of hope for the forgiveness of their sins. Jesus Himself, by His death on the cross became the sacrifice for us.

I'm quoting now from Hebrews... which was written to the Jews to explain OT prophecy fulfilled in Christ... most believe Paul was given this book to write.. but it has never been proven ( I personally believe it was) and chapters 9 and 10 are a must read to show how in Christ, all the demands of the Temple worship and the system of sacrifice are finished once and for all.

[Naaji]

Maybe you should spend less time on your alpha courses and more time studying the bible! you changed your tone quick didnt you two humble:

[Naaji]

Id also like to see your contradictions etc from the quran so i can put you right..... you must have been taught in ignorance to find any.

[carol_au]

Naaji,

Looking forward from the earliest ages, God's servants saw One who was to come, and as the time approached, this vision grew so clear that it would be almost possible for us to describe Christ's life on earth almost completely from the OT. Jeus declared "They testify of me."

There was one central figure in Isreal's hope. The work of the world's promised redemption was to be accomplished by one Man, the promised Messiah

He was to bruise the serpents head (Gen 3:15) Was to descend from Abraham (Gen 22:1 and from the Tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10)

Isreal looked forward and saw a great light shining upon the people that walked in darkness (Isaiah 9:2). And as he gazed, Isaiah saw a child that was to be born, a Son was to begiven (verse 6). And His names would include Wonderful, Counsellor, Might God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace . He was to be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). He was to come from the root of Jesse. (Isaiah 11:1)

Micah saw the town he was to be born in... Bethlehem Micah 5:2
Isaiah saw the adoration of the magi ... Isaiah 60:3
Jeremiah saw the death of the babies at the time of his birth Jer 33:1
Hosea saw the flight into Egypt Hosea 11:1

The prophets foresaw something of the character and extent of the Saviours work.. the light was to shine from zion for Jew and Gentile alike and was to be poured out on all flesh (Joel 2:2 and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God ( Isaiah 52:10)

The picture of of a victorious triumphant was a familiar one of the Jews. It was not a dying messiah they saw, but a political one who would save them from their servitudes. Yet the prophets saw a suffering Saviour.. Isaiah 52:13.. notice that His visage was more marred than any man. From the root of Jesse was to come a suffering Saviour who was to be rejected by men. (Isaiah 53:3) He saw the Lamb led to the slaughter.. and saw him die (vs 7). Daniel also states in Daniel 9:26 that He was to be cut off from the Land of the Living.

The psalmist saw it was one of his own friends that would betray him (Psalm 41:9) To continue the list of prophecies would definitely mean this post would become unreadable but every part of Jesus' life was prophesised.. The life, death and resurrection of Isreal's messiah is found in every book of the OT

But.. your question.. where does it say that God will actually come to earth? Job 29:26 " I know that my redeemer lives and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth."

The day will come when God will stand on this earth .. it's redeemer and it's king. ( my comment)

One question that has been a bit of a concern.. is the way Jesus calls Himself always the Son of Man. Compare this to Daniel 7 and the vision of the Son of Man appearing before the Ancient of Days. All people's, nations and men of every language will worship the Son of Man. Read then Daniel 10 and the appearance of one like a Man to Daniel

Finally the Rabbi response to the Suffering dying Saviour who would redeem the world and bring the long awaited forgiveness of sins

The musaf (additional) service for the Day of Atonement, Philips machzor (20th c.)

Our righteous anointed is departed from us: horror hath seized us, and we have non to justify us. He hath borne the yoke of our iniquities, and our transgression, and is wounded because of our transgression. He beareth our sins on his shoulder, that he may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound, at the time that the Eternal will create him (the Messiah) as a new creature. O bring him up from the circle of the earth. Raise him up from Seir, to assemble us the second time on Mount Lebanon, by the hand of Yinnon.

-- A. Th. Philips, Machzor Leyom Kippur / Prayer Book for the Day of Atonement with English Translation; Revised and Enlarged Edition (New York: Hebrew Publishing Company, 1931), p. 239. The passage can also be found in, e.g., the 1937 edition. Also, Driver and Neubauer, p. 399.

Rabbi Moshe Alshekh (El-Sheikh) of Sefad (16th c.)

I may remark, then, that our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we ourselves also adhere to the same view.

-- Driver and Neubauer, p. 258.

Yalkut ii: 571 (13th c.)

Who art thou, O great mountain (Zech. iv. 7.) This refers to the King Messiah. And why does he call him "the great mountain?" Because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, "My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly" -- he will be higher than Abraham, . . . lifted up above Moses, . . . loftier than the ministering angels.

-- Driver and Neubauer, p. 9.

The same passage is found in Midrash Tanhuma to Genesis (perhaps 9th c.), ed. John T. Townsend (Hoboken, NJ: Ktav, 1989), p. 166.


and finally

The Karaite Yefeth ben Ali (10th c.)

As to myself, I am inclined, with Benjamin of Nehawend, to regard it as alluding to the Messiah, and as opening with a description of his condition in exile, from the time of his birth to his accession to the throne: for the prophet begins by speaking of his being seated in a position of great honour, and then goes back to relate all that will happen to him during the captivity. He thus gives us to understand two things: In the first instance, that the Messiah will only reach his highest degree of honour after long and severe trials; and secondly, that these trials will be sent upon him as a kind of sign, so that, if he finds himself under the yoke of misfortunes whilst remaining pure in his actions, he may know that he is the desired one....

-- S. R. Driver and A. Neubauer, editors, The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters (2 volumes; New York: Ktav, 1969), pp. 19-20. The English translations used here are taken from volume 2. The original texts are in volume 1. Cf. Soloff, pp. 107-09.

Another statement from Yefeth ben Ali:

By the words "surely he hath carried our sicknesses," they mean that the pains and sickness which he fell into were merited by them, but that he bore them instead. . . . And here I think it necessary to pause for a few moments, in order to explain why God caused these sicknesses to attach themselves to the Messiah for the sake of Israel. . . . The nation deserved from God greater punishment than that which actually came upon them, but not being strong enough to bear it. . . God appoints his servant to carry their sins, and by doing so lighten their punishment in order that Israel might not be completely exterminated.

-- Driver and Neubauer, pp. 23 ff.; Soloff pp. 108-109.

[carol_au]

Seems like I'm posting a lot of posts today... my apologies but I just realised I didn't answer your question about what the Bible says about those who have never heard. The OT teaches that Israel l was to be a nation holy unto God who would be "missionaries" in their own right ... the purpose of the calling of the nation according to Genesis 12: was that Israel was blessed to be a blessing. Israel never was chosen to keep the blessings of God to themselves, but to be the source of God blessing the entire world.. "all the families on the earth will be blessed through you". God told Abraham, who himself was to become the father of many nations.

Now.. Israel's history as recorded in the OT is that she was sometimes disobedient.. yet even in her disobedience, as we saw in the story of God hardening Pharoh's heart.. God was still about showing Israel, and then all the nations of the earth His salvation.

In the New Testament, Jesus told His disciples to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all nations... the call of God on true believers is exactly the same today as it was to Israel.. we are blessed to be a blessing... to take God's salvation to the world. But what of the many who still haven't heard?

I am afraid I have to go to the letters of Paul for the answer, but I'm sure you will agree they do make sense

I wrote this in answer to a similar post in another forum.. this is an excerpt...
every culture has a moral code put there in their hearts because all men are made in the image of God.

Because they morally know the difference between right and wrong, when they choose to do wrong.. they become morally responsible before God. They are also a Law unto themselves in that their own moral conscience tells them of their own personal guilt when they step outside that moral law. (how many of us feel guilty when we tell a lie?)... "through the Law we become conscious of sin" Interestingly Romans is full of verses saying how even trying to live a good righeous life will leave you knowing that you are not able to (Romans 8:3). God has said he will judge them and He is without fault. As to the end of those who have never heard... Our God is a just God. That they will face judgement like you and I is without doubt. But God is their Judge not me.

As a Christian, I need to be obedient to what God has called me to do.. and that is go to every tribe, every people group and every language group and tell them the good news that God has provided for the deepest need of every man, woman and child on this planet.. the knowledge of the forgiveness of sins and of a relationship with God and assurance of life after death with Him.

[Logic]

Twohumble you said David surely did not rule the earth... NEITHeR DID JESUS (PBUH)! Remember, he said his kingdom is not here.. or words to that effect!

As for posting verses from Isaiah relevant to Jesus (pbuh), there are too verses in Isaiah that relate to Muhammad (pbuh). (NB. Muslims dont deny every single prophecy that relates to Jesus (pbuh) in the OT, our frustration stems from Christian ignorance of the relevance to Muhammad (pbuh)).

Isaiah, chapter 60:

"Arise, shiene; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee." Compare with Surah 74:1-3: "O. you [Muhammad], wrapped up in garments! Arise and warn! And your Lord magnify!"

"For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee" The advent of Muhammad (pbuh) was at a time of darkness when the world forgot the Oneness of God as taught by Abraham and all other Prophets including Jesus (pbuh).

"And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising"

"Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee:..." Within less than 23 years the whole of Arabia was united.

"..because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee" Within less than a century Islam spread out of Arabia to other countries.

"The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all theyfrom Sheba shall come, they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord"

"All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee; they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory". The tribes of Kedar (Arabia) who were divided were then united. "The house of my glory" referred here to the House of Allah in Mecca and not the Church of Christ as thought by Christian commentators. It is a fact that the villages of Kedar (now all of Saudi Arabia at least) are the only country of the world which remains impenetrable to any influence of the Church.

"Therefore thy gates shall be open continually: they shall not be shut day or night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought." It is a fact that the mosque surrounding the Holy Ka'bah in Mecca has remained open day and night since it was cleansed by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from the idols 1400 years ago. Rulers as well as subjects come for Pilgrimage.

The vision of Isaiah of the two riders in Isaiah 21:7: "And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels..." Who was the rider upon an ass? Jesus (pbuh)! "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written" Who then is the promised rider on a a camel? This powerful Prophet has been overlooked by Bible readers. This is the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If this is not applied to him, then the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. That is why Isaiah mentioned further in the same chapter(21:13): "The burden upon Arabia..." which means the responsibility of the Arab Muslims, and of course now all Muslims, to spread the message of Islam.

Isaiah 21:14: "The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled." Tema is probably Madina where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his comapnions emigrated to. each emigrant was bothered by one inhabitant of Madina and given food and shelter.

Isaiah 21:15: "For they fled from the sword, from the drawn sword and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war." This was when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his comapnions were persecuted and left Mecca for madina.

Isaiah 21:16: "For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail." exactly in the second year of Hijrah (immigration) the pagans were defeated in the battle of Badr.

Finally Isaiah 21:17 conludes with ".. the mighty men of the children of kedar, shall be diminished: for the Lord God of Israel hath spoken it." Kedar is the second son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13) from whom ultimately The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) arose. in the beginning the children of Kedar were attacking Muhammad (pbuh) and his comapnions. But as many of the accepted Islam, the number of children of Kedar who resisted, diminished. In some Bible verses Kedar is synonymous with Arab in general, as in Ezekiel 27:21: "Arabia, and all the princes of Kedar..."

[twohumble]

Logic, unfortunately I have not had time to wade through all the scripture you just quoted, and I see you have spent some time to compile your thoughts, so it deserves a more thorough response than I am prepared to give...so my apologies.

However, let me just respond to your opening paragraph. Jesus, is is prophesied to return a second time, and He will be the conquering King. Both the old and New test, especially Revelation show Jesus as ruler and conquer of all the Earth. His first incarnation was for the purpose of salvation and to call His church to Him, thus justification and sanctification through the His sacrafice and through the work of the Holy Spirit could begin.

In the second coming, you will agree, that He is sent as final judge and ruler of the world. Yes, from "the ends of the earth".

I hope you can see how this fits Psalm 2.

God Bless

I will try and get though the rest of your post and reply later, but I may not be able to for a bit.

Carol...I posted my other question to you on another thread..would u like to respond?

[vrola19]

[Alpha]

John Gill

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , the most gracious most merciful

The pillars of christianity are established by Paul
not by Jesus (pbuh).

That is why there are interesting ideas like

Trinity
God in 'flesh'
Dying for sins of mankind

in todays christianity.

[Ozanf]

see:

"100 Similarities between the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul"


http://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul.htm

and


"More Similarities between the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul"

http://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul_more.htm

[Abdurrahman]

Paul: how he invented the current Christian faith & destroyed that of Jesus

One of the most confusing sections of the Bible is those epistles (letters) that Paul wrote. They are not considered "gospels" & yet they fill more than half the pages of the New Testament. They contain a lot of contradictory statements & are the real cause for the deviation of current Christianity from its original righteous path. They were the seed that started the division of the Christian faith into several opposing sects. From the moment these epistles were included in the holy book, Christianity kept drifting farther & farther away from its simple forgiving origins. The core of today's Christianity barely has any connection with Jesus' preaching & has even shifted far from Paul's deviations (absurd as they may be):

1. Paul claimed that Jesus is "the Son of God" Romans1: 4, but not "the God". He is a Lord that comes 2nd to the Father.

2. Paul never stated that God (the father) & Christ (the son) are one.

3. Paul did not say that God & Christ are equal. Paul defined God as the father/the creator/the almighty/the greatest, while Jesus was always the follower who takes after the father.

4. Paul never referred to any "trinity".

5. Paul did not designate mother Mary any divinity & never called her "the mother of Light (God)".

Paul may have put down the foundation of Christianity, but the Patriarchs/Monks/Priests throughout the years have added a multi-story building on top of this base, a building that Paul himself (let alone Jesus Christ) never intended to be erected!



Notes on Paul's autobiography [according to Acts (of the Apostles) in the Holy Book]

1. In Acts 9 Saul (Paul's original Jewish name before embracing Christianity) is portrayed (years after the ascent of Christ to Heaven) as a fanatic anti-Christ Jew who was "breathing out murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord." He went to the high priest of Jerusalem & asked him for letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus deputizing Saul to arrest any man or woman embracing the new religion & bring them bound in chains back to Jerusalem. "As he journeyed & came near Damascus, a light from Heaven suddenly flashed around him making him fall to the ground. He then heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me?" So he said, "Who are you, Lord?" Then Jesus replied, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. Get up & get into the city & you will be told what you must do." At this very moment Saul shifted his beliefs from the far-left anti-Christ stand to become a far right fanatic pro-Christ! Now, three versions of this incident appear in this section of the Bible [Acts], not one of them is identical with the other. So let's review them & note the differences:

a) In Acts 9 "The men travelling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. They led him by the hand to Damascus. For 3 days he was blind & did not eat or drink anything."

b) In Acts 22: 9 "…my companions indeed saw the light & were afraid, but they did not hear the voice.."

c) In Acts 26: 13 " … along the road I saw a light from Heaven stronger than the sun, shining around me & those who journeyed with me. We all had fallen to the ground when I heard a voice speaking to me in Hebrew…"

So, in version (a) the companions heard the sound but did not see the light & Saul was blinded. In version (b) they saw the light but did not hear the voice. In version (c) all of them fell to the ground (not just Saul as in a). How can the same crucial event be narrated by the same man (Paul) in the same chapter (only few pages apart) of the same book (the Bible) & be that different? There is no plausible explanation other than being a fabrication or that the man is feeble-minded.

2. Now let us carry on with the story in Acts 9 "In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Arise & go to the house of Judas on the street named Straight & ask for the man from Tarsus, Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he saw a man named Ananias coming in & putting his hand on him to restore his sight." Ananias said to the Lord, "I have heard from many about the man & all the harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. He has come here with an authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles & their kings & before the people of Israel." Then Ananias went into the house & on placing his hands on Saul he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus-who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here-has sent me so that you may see again & be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately something like scales fell from Saul's eyes & he could see again. He got up & was baptized. After taking some food, he regained his strength. Immediately, he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. " All of a sudden Paul becomes "Immediately" an expert in Christianity & begins preaching it! And what does he preach: that Jesus is the son of God. Who taught him that? Where has he learned the principles of his preachings? Also, there is a historic flop as Damascus did not have synagogues at the time being an enemy of the Jews." All those who heard him were astonished & asked, "Isn't he the same man who destroyed all those who called on this name [Christ]? & hasn't he come here for the purpose of taking them bound in chains as prisoners to the chief priests?" They were astonished then & we are still amazed now! "After many days had gone by, the Jews conspired to kill him, but Saul learned of their plan… but his followers took him by night & lowered him in a large basket through an opening in the wall [surrounding Damascus]. When he reached Jerusalem he tried to join the disciples [of Jesus] but they were all afraid of him & didn't believe that he was really a disciple. But Barnabas· took him & brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey to Damascus had seen the Lord & that the Lord had spoken to him, & how in Damascus he has preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. So Saul stayed in Jerusalem with them & he moved freely speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. He disputed with the Hellenists [Greeks] & they tried to kill him. When the brothers learned of this, they brought him to Caesarea & sent him to Tarsus." One small remark, the occupants (at that time) were Romans & not Greeks!

3. The narration stops here to be resumed in Acts 11: 22 when the church in Jerusalem learns of the great number of believers (including many non-Jews) turning to Jesus' message in the north, so they decide to send Barnabas to Antioch to teach the new believers. He went to Tarsus to fetch Paul, found him & took him back with him to Tarsus where they stayed preaching in the Church for one year. "…And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" Acts 11: 26. Isn't this strange? Jesus never gave his message, followers & disciples a particular name during his stay on earth. Now, several years after his ascent to heaven, there comes someone whom Jesus never met: a zealot enemy of his message who suddenly turns towards it because of an alleged vision of Jesus. Out of a sense of self-guilt & repentance for his previous attitudes or out of a cunning desire to degrade the message of its forgiving humble goodness content, this man (Paul) begins preaching a new religion exalting Jesus to the divine levels of God & gives it the name (Christianity) that the founder of it dared never use; a name implying that followers now worship Christ rather than the Creator of Christ, the Almighty God. Furthermore, Paul disobeys the rules of preaching that his master had set, he preaches to non-Jews (Gentiles) & in a land far up north of where Jesus intended his message to be confined; "Jesus said 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel'" Mathew: 15: 24.

4. While preaching in Cyprus, together with Barnabas, the Holy Book tells us that Saul has suddenly changed his name to Paul & no reasons are given, "Then Saul, who also is called Paul, became filled with the Holy spirit.." Acts 13: 9. So what does this Saul or Paul say about his origin? We become really very much confused about a man who seems not to know his origin (or is deliberately changing or hiding it), a man who is sainted & considered the founder of the current Christian faith by most Christians. In Acts 16: 37 we find that Paul is Roman, "But Paul said to them, "They have beaten us publicly without being condemned in any trial even though we are Romans." In Acts 21: 37 Paul is thought to be an Egyptian, but he addresses the Jerusalem mob saying that he is a Jew from Tarsus; " Then as Paul was about to be led to the barracks, he asked the commander in Greek, 'May I say something to you?' The commander said, "Do you speak Greek? Aren't you the Egyptian who sometime ago stirred up a revolt & led 4000 terrorists out into the desert?' Paul answered, 'I am a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia…" In Acts 22: 25-28 Paul again insists that he was Roman, not a one who obtained the citizenship but born Roman, " As Paul was bound with thongs to be flogged, he said to the centurion [commander of 100 soldiers] who stood by, ' Is it lawful for you to scourge a Roman citizen who hasn't been found guilty?'…. the commander said to him, 'Are you Roman?' Paul said, 'Yes.' The commander said, 'I had to pay a big price to obtain my Roman citizenship.' And Paul said, 'But I was born a citizen [Roman]." Still, for more confusion, in Acts 23: 6 Paul shouts out loud that he is a Pharisee! " But when Paul perceived that some of the members of the Sanhedrin [high Jewish council] were Sadducees & the others Pharisees [2 different Jewish creeds], he cried out in the council 'My brothers I am a Pharisee & the son of a Pharisee.."

5. To carry on with Paul's story (according to Acts), in Jerusalem Paul was arrested in the temple by Jews from Asia shouting, "he is the man who is teaching against the laws of Jews" Acts 21:28, he was rescued from the mob by Roman soldiers. He was given a hearing infront of the Jewish council & there was a plot to kill him from which he was saved & deported to Caesarea where he spent sometime in prison. The Jews in Jerusalem have plotted to kill the imprisoned Paul. He knows of the plot & the commander of the barracks lets him leave at night escorted safely to Caesarea with a note to its governor Felix urging him to make Paul stand trial infront of his accusers. Paul was imprisoned for almost 2 years after the trial until Festus succeeded Felix. The new governor re-trialed Paul in the presence of King Agrippa, & their verdict was to agree on Paul's appeal to be in the custody of Caesar in Rome. He was called by Festus "insane" Acts 27:24. After a weary 3-month sea journey in which the ship sank & Paul passed by Malta & Alexandria (of Egypt), they finally reached Rome. There, Paul stayed for 2 whole years in a house he rented boldly preaching the kingdom of God & all about Jesus Christ. .. In Acts 28:17 it is stated that Paul spent 2 years teaching & preaching freely the Jews in Rome (despite of a contradictory statement in Acts 18:2 in which it is mentioned that earlier "Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome"!) History informs us that Paul was killed by the sword in Rome.

6. It is noticed that Paul has introduced in his preachings a lot of new rituals & beliefs that Jesus never preached. He told the Jews & Gentiles to turn away from Moses laws (commandments) [Acts 21: 21], especially circumcision (Acts 15:2). He was a hypocrite that talked to every sect in the way they believe, as when he circumcised his follower Timothy (Acts 16:3) while preaching among the Jews of Derbe & Lystra (despite being against circumcision Galatians 5:2/3:12); & as he did with the Greeks in Athens when he felt distressed by the many idol statues he saw there & yet when he preached the Athenians he told them that the altar they had on which is inscribed "To an unknown God" could be worshiped as The Almighty God creator of the world (Acts 17: 16-25) . Other signs of his hypocrisy are encountered in his praise for the Old Testament (Moses law) when he is addressing Jews [as in Romans 1:16/2:13/3:31/7:12], yet he degrades the book & the law when talking to non-Jews [Galatians 2:16/3:1-3/3:11-12/3:19/4:5]. He introduced some pagan rituals into Christianity {as offering sacrifice, Acts 14:13 and forming churches & churchmen hierarchy, Acts 14:23/20:28, and also in Turkey (Corinth & Ephesus) when he found that disciples of John the Baptist had preceded them there preaching the true religion, he invented the ritual of receiving the Holy Spirit in baptization, Acts 19}. Although Paul referred to Jesus as the Christ/the Lord/the Savior of Israel, he still maintained God's superiority over Jesus [Acts 13:23/17:3/17:31].



The status of God & Jesus in Paul's epistles

Christians of today have a sound belief that Paul wrote these epistles (letters) by direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. Hence, they have included them as part of the Holy Book (found after Acts). Next, we will review some of the content of these epistles that became the core of the prevalent Christian faith of today (according to Paul).

ROMANS

1. "..His son Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was a descendent of David according to the flesh, & declared to be the son of God through the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead." Romans 1: 3-4. Here is stated the first aberration from the true message of Jesus. Paul raises him to the rank of the "son of God" & endows upon him 2 natures: one human "to the flesh" & the other "divine spiritual".

2. "Grace & peace to you from God our father & from the Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 1:7. Here divinity is divided between 2: God & Jesus (father & son) with no mention of any 3rd entity sharing this divinity (the holy spirit).

3. "..I thank my God through Jesus Christ…God, whom I serve with my whole heart…" Romans1: 8-9. Here Paul starts specifying privileges & functions to each of his 2 divine entities: thanking is a function of Jesus while worshipping is to God.

3. " [God] has left the sins committed in the past unpunished, & to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time that He might be just & the justifier of those who have faith in Jesus" Romans 3:26, "..in the day that God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel" Romans 2:16. These verses indicate that God's righteousness & forgiveness to people occur through their faith in Jesus (rather than the message of Jesus). Then Paul refers to his own gospel, where is it??

4. In Romans 3:25 "God presented him {Jesus} as a sacrifice/atonement/propitiation by his blood, through faith" & in Romans 5:8 " But God demonstrates his love to us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us". This implies that the sins of mankind of the past & the present are nullified by Jesus' sacrifice of his blood & faith in such sacrifice (another of Paul's numerous additions to the original faith). One can't help wondering how God had no mercy on his so-called "son" by making him suffer like that! Wasn't there any other more merciful way in God's endless powers to provide love & forgiveness to his subjects?

5. In Romans 5: 18-19 " Therefore, just as through one man's offense condemnation came to all men, so also through one man's righteous act justification of life came to all men. For as by one man's disobedience [Adam] many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience [Jesus] many will be made righteous." In Romans 6:11 "..count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus". Here is another serious shift of faith. A man is not judged by his own sins & deeds, but rather by those of others! If you do bad, Jesus' sacrifice has provided you with propitiation, redemption & atonement provided you just believe in that. Conversely, if you do good, you still remain a sinner (being of Adam's seed)!

read the rest :

http://wadee3.5u.com/Paul.htm