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Islamic science, is it really a miracle
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Kai Hagbard
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 Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 02:24 pm Post subject: Islamic science, is it really a miracle |
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It seems as if the Islamic science, as described within the Koran and the Hadiths have become a perpetual comeback, as they are claimed to be consistent with modern scientific prediction and observation.
It seems to me, that to the majority of modern Muslims, koranic and Hadith science has become the actual rescuing line from loosing faith.
As a matter of fact it has has become outmosth obvious that a range of Muslims propagate Islamic science as the last frontier of saving a severely challenged religion.
These scientific claims fall however short, as they are highly speculative, as Muslims scholars read a mountain of data into the text. Secondly, the context reveals, that fare from being modern in its prediction, the Koranic science describes an ancient science, which predates Islam with several centuries. Thirdly, and in line with the second point, the Koranic science is highly unscientific at least according to modern interpretation, which explains the use of ancient scientific philosophy.
The most challenging factor lays in the cosmological Koranic paradigm, in its description of a galactic sun-orbit. In other words, the sun and moon seem clearly to orbit the earth, and in the light of some Hadith passages, the stars as well.
“(God is) the one Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion” (Sura 21: 33). |
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H2O
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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You must be are talking about English renderings which do not substitue the original, and which are mereless translators understanding or opinions based on their knowledge of that time.
What we have seen in criticism is attacks towards an opinion not what the actual source of Islamic science says, then expound on it, in which translation of such sources have been taken advantage of in prestige to be equal with the original.
More than likely the reason of making this post was to debate such a topic. What I have read the Quran coinsides with scientific discoveries of unseen realities which cannot be found with no other nation before the time of Muhammad (s.a.w.).
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On My Way
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 01:54 am Post subject: |
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Hello H20
| Quote: | What I have read the Quran coinsides with scientific discoveries of unseen realities which cannot be found with no other nation before the time of Muhammad (s.a.w.).
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Since I have not read the Quran for myself can you give me some examples of what you are describing above?
Thanks
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Apple Pie
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 01:56 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Let’s take a look at your comment here…
| Quote: | | More than likely the reason of making this post was to debate such a topic. What I have read the Quran coinsides with scientific discoveries of unseen realities which cannot be found with no other nation before the time of Muhammad (s.e.e.s.a.w.). |
With all due respect, Koranic “science” is a massive joke…..
The Holy Bible Body-slams the Koran in every aspect of Biblical material in which the authors of the Koran attempted to stuff the Koran with.
You should know this by now…
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Kai Hagbard
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 04:13 am Post subject: |
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H2O wrote:
| Quote: | | More than likely the reason of making this post was to debate such a topic. What I have read the Quran coinsides with scientific discoveries of unseen realities which cannot be found with no other nation before the time of Muhammad (s.a.w.). |
kai responds:
Exactly, what do you mean by unseen realites? The Big Bang, the reality of the atoms, the string theory? Could you please expound on this?
And secondly, in connection to the above, how do we truly know that unseen realities are truly accurate? Most scientific claims are verified only by a scientists oppionion, based on a theory, necessary to fit a larger picture of presupposition; just take the inflation-ephoc for example, or the current necessity of forcing a unified theory; basically science has become a joke.
H2O wrote:
| Quote: | | What we have seen in criticism is attacks towards an opinion not what the actual source of Islamic science says, then expound on it, in which translation of such sources have been taken advantage of in prestige to be equal with the original. |
Kai responds:
As a matter of fact I thought it was the other way round, that modern Koranic translation seek to modernise the scientific language of the Koran to fit modern science.
Whatever, possibly the verse below is merely a matter of oppinion, or what?
“(God is) the one Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion” (Sura 21: 33). |
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H2O
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Kai Hagbard wrote: | | As a matter of fact I thought it was the other way round, that modern Koranic translation seek to modernise the scientific language of the Koran to fit modern science. |
Yes and No. I would agree to the extent that tranlators who are not experts in the field gave a rendering based on the knowledge of their time thus rendering terms that are modern terms and not the original meaning of the words.
You cannot say they tried to modernise the statements in the Quran to fit modern science unless you understand what the text actually expresses. To make such a bold statement is to express that you your self know what the original actually says.
Being that I am aquinted with embryology we can relate to Quran discription from its original on this manner. We find most translators renderings to decline from the original.
Before we move on though Kai remember this word you emphasized "opinion" it can be a boomer rang if your not careful.
| On My Way wrote: | | Since I have not read the Quran for myself can you give me some examples of what you are describing above? |
Would love to do that, but first lets see how progressive this discussion will be before a few bad apples start to spoil the pie. In the mean time I will prepare to make such a post.
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Apple Pie
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Need more prep time.....do ya....?
Well...we will be anxiously waiting....
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Kai Hagbard
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 07:05 am Post subject: |
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| Well, as I said, the most challenging issue lays in the cosmological factor. |
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H2O
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 02:54 pm Post subject: |
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What do we know about the Earth's atmosphere according to modern science ?
The Earth's entire atmosphere, The Sky, is made up of layers constructed of seven atmospheres
* Thermosphere
* Exosphere
* Ionosphere
* Mesosphere
* Stratosphere
* Tropopause
* Troposphere
The Quran mentions these atmopheres in number as seven (7) firmaments which is the simular number firmaments in space that is beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and of the Earth their simularity....65:12
These seven firmaments are tracks above us.
and indeed We have created already above you all seven tracks and We are not heedless of the creation 23:17
The sky above us is a roof structure
He is who made for you all the Earth as a bed and the sky as a roof structure.... 2:21
This "binaa'a" or "Roof Structure" is a means of protecting us.
and We made the sky as a protecting roof....21:32
It was virtually impossible for a human being over 1400 years ago to know that our sky was a roof structure that protected us which had seven tracks.
| Kai wrote: | | Well, as I said, the most challenging issue lays in the cosmological factor. |
Would you like to go into the Embryology factors ?
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Apple Pie
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 08:31 pm Post subject: |
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Greeting H2O,
Let’s look at the cliché Muslim attempt to reconcile the Koran to Modern Cosmology…
| Quote: | What do we know about the Earth's atmosphere according to modern science ?
The Earth's entire atmosphere, The Sky, is made up of layers constructed of seven atmospheres
* Thermosphere
* Exosphere
* Ionosphere
* Mesosphere
* Stratosphere
* Tropopause
* Troposphere |
Classic…too bad that Muslims cannot decide how they want to order these “atmospheres” nor what they want to call them…let alone try to make them fit into the Koran…
1. Trophosphere
2. Ozonosphere
3. Stratosphere
4. Mesoshpere
5. Thermosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Exosphere
Ref: Carolyn Sheets, Robert Gardner, Samual F. Howe, ‘General Science’, Massachussetes, 1985, p. 319-322
Now...which one are you subscribing to....?
Now...that you have erected your straw man argument, you are now ready to show us the one-hit wonder Koranic ayahs in which they are to be force-fed into….
But wait….let’s first see where the “seven-heaven” concept originated…
2 Enoch, or the Slavonic Apocalypse of Enoch, was written late first century C.E. in Egypt by a Jew. It survives only in late Old Slavonic manuscripts. It may have been composed originally in Aramaic or Hebrew, later being translated into Greek, and later still being translated into Old Slavonic. It is an amplification of Gen 5:21-32 (from Enoch to the Flood). Major theological themes include:
(1) God created the world out of nothing (24:2);
(2) seven heavens (30:2-3) and angelic hosts;
(3) God created the souls of men before the foundation of the earth (23:5);
(4) abodes of heaven and hell are already prepared for righteous and sinners; and
(5) ethical teachings, which at times parallel those of the NT and Proverbs."
ref:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm
Hmmm…not very original material….but then again, the authors of the Koran are pretty clear in the fact that they are simply imitating previous scriptures…
Hence....what can you really expect from an imitator...?
| Quote: | The Quran mentions these atmopheres in number as seven (7) firmaments which is the simular number firmaments in space that is beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and of the Earth their simularity....65:12 |
Hmmmm…….I guess you want to forgo the context of this abbreviated one-hit wonder ayah…..why is that, exactly….?
Perhaps it is due to the fact that if you were to show the whole ayah – let alone surrounding ayahs, you would see this passage for what it is…
Sura 65:12 tells us of not only seven heavens, but seven Earths as well:
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna yatanazzalu al-amru baynahunna litaAAlamoo anna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun waanna Allaha qad ahata bikulli shay-in AAilman
Allah is who created seven skies/space(s), and from the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them, the command/matter descends between them, to know that Allah (is) on every thing capable/able, and that Allah had comprehended/enveloped with every thing knowledge. (65:12)
Perhaps, in your next post, you can reference the odds of seven more Earth’s ANYWHERE in the entire Universe…
I will be waiting anxiously for this reply…
| Quote: | These seven firmaments are tracks above us.
and indeed We have created already above you all seven tracks and We are not heedless of the creation 23:17 |
Let’s look at how these Koranically rendered layers stack up (no pun intended)…
41.9 "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in two days, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
41.10 And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in four days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.
41.11 Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They (B) said: "We came obedient."
41.12 So He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in two days, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation , that (is) the glorious'/mighty's , the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation .
The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY places the stars in the lowest of the Seven heavens.
The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 places the creation of the Seven heavens/skies/spaces, AFTER the completion of the Earth.
This is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE as planetary accretion is ONLY possible AFTER star formation has occurred.
67.3 Who created seven skies/space(s) (in) stages/layers , you do not see in the merciful's creation from discrepancy/inconsistency , so return the eyesight do you see from splits/cracks/cleaves?
67.4 Then return the eyesight two times/repetitions , the eyesight returns to you diminished/humiliated and it is grieving/uncovered .
67.5 And We had decorated/beautified, the sky/space (of) the present world with lights/stars, and We made it meteorites/shooting stars for the devils, and We prepared/made ready for them the/blazing/inflamed (inferno) torture.
Again…looks like the authors of the Koran want the stars to be in the lowest of the seven heavens. Yet another gaff on their behalf…
But wait…..there’s more….these stars also act to deter the devils…
Hmmm…..sounds like the Koran is doing a slice and dice work…
71.15 "'Do you not see, understand how God created seven skies/space(s) (in) stages/layers/plates ?'"
71.16 "'And He made/put the moon in their midst (as) a light, and He made/put the sun (as) a lamp .'"
So now the moon is in the middle of the seven layers….?!
Not only that, but the moon is a light….
Please show me which layer you feel the moon is sandwiched between…..
So….this is your best attempt at reconciling Koranic Cosmology to modern science?
How about trying to reconcile the “common” ayahs within the Koran itself before making the Koran out to be a laughing stock…
The Koran cannot even copy the Holy Bible without messing things up….
Thanks…
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H2O
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 09:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Apple wrote: | Allah is who created seven skies/space(s), and from the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them, the command/matter descends between them, to know that Allah (is) on every thing capable/able, and that Allah had comprehended/enveloped with every thing knowledge. (65:12)
Perhaps, in your next post, you can reference the odds of seven more Earth’s ANYWHERE in the entire Universe… |
As usually, you dont speak Arabic and can do nothing without touching those dictionaries you have that you dont know how to use, but have constantly tried to distort the Arabic of the Quran.
How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ? Where is the preposition "to" coming from ? mithlahunna means their simularity not "al-ardhu wa min mithla lahunna" to which you translated as " the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them". I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
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Apple Pie
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 01:11 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for the reply that you were able to muster…
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
Allah is who created seven skies/space(s), and from the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them, the command/matter descends between them, to know that Allah (is) on every thing capable/able, and that Allah had comprehended/enveloped with every thing knowledge. (65:12)
Perhaps, in your next post, you can reference the odds of seven more Earth’s ANYWHERE in the entire Universe…
As usually, you dont speak Arabic and can do nothing without touching those dictionaries you have that you dont know how to use, but have constantly tried to distort the Arabic of the Quran. |
You mean the Lexicons that you, yourself, spent $175+ on so that you could understand what you claim to speak?!
Now that you are on this “conforming the Koran to science” kick, you are going to need every resource available to you….
Looks like the restaurant biz had dulled your "Theology" degree.....was it the bussing of the tables that did it for ya...?
| Quote: | | How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ? Where is the preposition "to" coming from ? mithlahunna means their simularity not "al-ardhu wa min mithla lahunna" to which you translated as " the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them". I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ? |
Boot up that CD ROM of yours and take a gander at the definitions that Lane gives…
Similitude:
Means counterpart – duplicate – consisting of or existing in two corresponding or identical parts or examples - complement – a thing that fits another perfectly - one remarkably similar to another - one having the same function or characteristics as another
Analogue:
Something that is analogous or similar to something else. The etymology of analogous gives us the literal definition of proportionate. If something is proportionate, then it is equal in symmetry, magnitude, quantity, or degree.
So…..yes, the Koran claims seven earths to go along with its seven layered cake…..!
Looks like the rest of my rebuttal is A-OK….
Thanks…
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IAMFREE
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 02:53 am Post subject: |
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[quote="H2O"]
We have created already above you all seven tracks and We are not heedless of the creation 23:17
We made the sky as a protecting roof....21:32
Who is "WE" that is refered to in these passages? Is Allah more then one?
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H2O
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 05:56 pm Post subject: |
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You still didnt answer our question. Lets try again Apple Pie.
How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ? Where is the preposition "to" coming from ? mithlahunna means their simularity not "al-ardhu wa min mithla lahunna" to which you translated as " the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them". I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
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Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view |
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H2O
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H2O
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 06:37 pm Post subject: |
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Oops, I almost forgot Apple Pie.
You said that verse says 7 earths would you mind explaining also what is the subject and what is the predicate in
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna..
for you to claim that verse expresses 7 earths
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Kai Hagbard
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 07:22 pm Post subject: |
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[b]H20 wrote:[/b]
| Quote: | What do we know about the Earth's atmosphere according to modern science ?
The Earth's entire atmosphere, The Sky, is made up of layers constructed of seven atmospheres
* Thermosphere
* Exosphere
* Ionosphere
* Mesosphere
* Stratosphere
* Tropopause
* Troposphere
The Quran mentions these atmopheres in number as seven (7) firmaments which is the simular number firmaments in space that is beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and of the Earth their simularity....65:12
These seven firmaments are tracks above us.
and indeed We have created already above you all seven tracks and We are not heedless of the creation 23:17 |
Kai replies:
To view this passage as a reference to the entire atmosphere, is speculation, as you need to look at the Koranic context on this particular issue.
On what basis can you separate the seven tracts and the seven heavens?
Your assumption that seven tracts refer to the earthly atmospheres is speculative, it reads elements into the text, and it simply does not consist with the context of the actual issue.
Secondly, your presupposition does not even consist with the conclusion of modern science.
You presuppose that there are seven levels with in the earthly atmosphere.
| Quote: | Thermosphere
* Exosphere
* Ionosphere
* Mesosphere
* Stratosphere
* Tropopause
* Troposphere |
Kai replies:
I simply don’t find your interpretation correct as the scientific speculation is inconsistent in itself.
First of all a range of scientist would only refer to the troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere and the thermosphere as the actual atmospheric layers.
This would suggest that there are actually 4 layers rather than seven.
There are however, a range of (so called) sub-spheres (so to put it).
Of course including the these sub-spheres you attempt to reach the number seven, which supposedly predicts the seven layers.
However, including the fullness of the atmospheric picture (at least in its supposed detailed theoretical proposition) fails bitterly in providing any credit to the Koran.
The reason is clearly obvious. While the troposphere only extends 8 to 14.5 kilometres, the tropopause mainly separates the Troposphere from the Stratosphere, thus a range of scientists consider both the troposphere and the tropopause to make up the lower atmosphere.
The same goes for the Stratosphere and the stratopause and the mesosphere and the mesopause.
Deplorably your post excludes the Stratopause and the mesopause, which is a dishonest way to reduce the sphere to the seven presupposed layers of the atmosphere which Muslims try to read into the Koran.
The next three are the ionosphere which seems to be everything but agreed upon by scientists; some would categorize it as a sub-category within the Stratosphere and the uppermost thermosphere.
The last one’s are the Thermosphere and Exosphere.
In other words, if we are to look at all the various spheres, we have the:
1) Troposphere
2) Tropopause
3) Stratosphere
4) Stratopause
5) Mesosphere
6) Mesopause
7) Ionosphere (one or two?)
8) Thermosphere
9) Exosphere
Thus your presupposed scientific number is short by 2 or possible 3 spheres; not exactly a fulfilment of Koranic scientific prediction.
To complicate the matter there are some who even consider the Ozonosphere as a layer on its own. If this is correct the atmosphere consists of ten or possibly elleven layers.
To my surprise, I have even heard of 27 seven layers, if only I can remember where I read that.
Personally, I believe that science has not discovered the full picture yet, and possible never will.
You can do it two ways bro:
1) You can totally exclude the three pauses, which will leave you with six layers, that is one short of your personal Koranic interpretation.
Or you can include all the spheres and end up with 9 spheres which are 2 spheres above the so called Koranic interpretation.
Instead you make the hideous fallacy of including only one of the pauses (the tropopause) to make the number match with seven; and this is playing with your integrity bro. Clearly if you add the Tropopause your forced to (if you are honest) include the Stratopause and Mesopause as well, but no.
Funny enough, even your illustrative picture, debunkes your idea, as it describes seven layers or function but excludes the Ionosphere and the Exosphere. Thus the illustration does not illustrate your proposition and rather contradicts it.
H20 wrote:
| Quote: | | Would you like to go into the Embryology factors ? |
Kai replies:
No, I think Loki effectively ripped you into pieces on that one in an earlier post. Let’s rather stay on the same line, that of cosmology. |
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H2O
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Kai Hagbard
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Kai wrote earlier:
| Quote: | | Personally, I believe that science has not discovered the full picture yet, and possible never will. |
H20 wrote:
| Quote: | | You say this but then still try to incline towards a definite number, you contradict your self so there can be no definite resolution that contradicts Quran. |
Kai responds:
No, bro I stated nothing, I gave you the number of layers as proposed by modern science, which include everything from nine to possible 11 layers.
If the Koran predicts seven layers, then the Koran is simply wrong, at least according to modern science.
H20 wrote:
| Quote: | | We did not exclude anything as you asserted that I may have dropped the other pheres mentioned by you. If you would have right clicked on the Diagram picture above it would take you straight to the reference source. |
Kai replies:
The diagram and the ideas you posted are not consistent, got it bro?
These are the layers you proposed:
* Thermosphere
* Exosphere
* Ionosphere
* Mesosphere
* Stratosphere
* Tropopause
* Troposphere
The diagram proposed different layers:
Thermosphere
mesopause
mesosphere
stratopause
stratosphere
tropopause
troposphere
Get the point?
I do not say the diagram is wrong, it simply excluded something, and you quickly by hunting the number of seven, applied the diagram as a evidence. The diagram does not even prove that there are seven layers, as it leaves out several layers.
Where is for example the exosphere, or the ionosphere?
And why do you leave out the stratopause and the menopause? Don't you detect some serious inconsistence here?
Honestly, you need to do your homework.
H20 wrote:
| Quote: | | Quran stated there are 7, thats what we believe confirming other cosmotologists who concluded 7 |
Kai replies:
No, the Koran does no where state that there are several layers in the atmosphere, the Koran speaks about seven heavens, in which the first one is beautified with the stars.
The whole idea of seven layers in the atmosphere is speculation, not accurate prediction.
H20 posted me this website as a source of evidence:
| Quote: | | http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/planets/earth/Atmosphere.shtml |
Kai replies:
I red it!
Guess what, I know now from where you got your information.
However, this website is simply the source from which you copied your seven-layer-atmosphere, and I will repeat myself again, the Website does not state that there are seven layers, it simply excludes some of them.
In other words, it proves nothing, what so ever.
H20 wrote:
Kai replies:
1. Well I did the test
2. I had much fun
3. The correct answer was 5 |
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H2O
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Kai wrote: | | No, bro I stated nothing, I gave you the number of layers as proposed by modern science, which include everything from nine to possible 11 layers. |
| Kai wrote: | 1. Well I did the test
2. I had much fun
3. The correct answer was 5 |
Now Kai which is it 5, 7, 9,10 or 11 ? We have a major problem here, not you but on the scientific part.
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Kai Hagbard
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Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 459
Location: Europe-Asia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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Kai wrote earlier:
1. Well I did the test
2. I had much fun
3. The correct answer was 5
H20 replied:
Now Kai which is it 5, 7, or 11 ?
Kai replies:
Well, I can only repeat myself. I am very critical of modern science, I make no claims about the number of layers in the atmosphere.
However, you H20, continually claim, that the atmosphere contains seven layers.
This claim you propose is supposedly stated by the Koran, and that is a fallacy.
This claim is supposedly consisting with modern science which is a lie.
I did the test as you challenged me to do, and the number of layers in the atmosphere, according to that website, which I assume is modern science, clearly states that the the atmosphere consists of 5 layers, not seven.
If the website or modern science is correct, I dont know. All I know is that modern science claims everything slight differently than you supposedly claim. |
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H2O
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Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Kai wrote: | | I did the test as you challenged me to do, and the number of layers in the atmosphere, according to that website, which I assume is modern science, clearly states that the the atmosphere consists of 5 layers, not seven. |
But your finding before the test said somewhere between 9-11. Now we come to another source that says 5 that doesnt even give the option above 7.
| Kai wrote: | | If the website or modern science is correct... |
The Web site is based on Modern science. Now what happened to your statement :
| Kai wrote: | | Personally, I believe that science has not discovered the full picture yet, and possible never will. |
In which you express that modern science is not in total agreement as to the exact number whereas sources contradict each other. There for the Quranic expression of seven cannot be contested against until an absolute number is determined, just as the Quran says the heaven refering to the Universe as we believe will fold up confirming the theory of contraction rather than infinite expansion whihc again is not total agreement with each other
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Apple Pie
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 502
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your double post…
| Quote: | You still didnt answer our question. Lets try again Apple Pie.
How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ? Where is the preposition "to" coming from ? mithlahunna means their simularity not "al-ardhu wa min mithla lahunna" to which you translated as " the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them". I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
Oops, I almost forgot Apple Pie.
You said that verse says 7 earths would you mind explaining also what is the subject and what is the predicate in
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna..
for you to claim that verse expresses 7 earths |
Actually, I already answered your question.
But…let me expound upon it a little more for you – since Muslims tend to be on the thicker side of things…especially the ones that use their theology degrees to manage restaurants...
1) Allah is who created seven skies/space(s),
2) AND “wa” from the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them,
3) the command/matter descends between them, to know that Allah (is) on every thing capable/able,
4) AND “wa” that Allah had comprehended/enveloped with every thing knowledge.
This is what we have linking the seven heavens to the seven earths…
و = “wa”
“wa” definition:
An inseparable prefixed conjunction; And; Also; But; Whilst, At; Together; With. It is used as a conjunction, unrestricted conjunction, and is expressive of concomitance, particle used for swearing (by God).
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3049
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 599
Please review the definition for “wa”…
Conjunction:
An uninflected linguistic form that joins together sentences, clauses, phrases, or words
The act or an instance of conjoining : the state of being conjoined; to join together (as separate entities) for a common purpose; Combination.
Occurrence together in time or space : Concurrence; the simultaneous occurrence of events or circumstances.
Concomitance:
Accompaniment; an addition intended to give completeness or symmetry; compliment; an accompanying situation or occurrence.
Now….a review of what I previously posted to you…
Similitude:
Means counterpart – duplicate – consisting of or existing in two corresponding or identical parts or examples - complement – a thing that fits another perfectly - one remarkably similar to another - one having the same function or characteristics as another
Analogue:
Something that is analogous or similar to something else. The etymology of analogous gives us the literal definition of proportionate. If something is proportionate, then it is equal in symmetry, magnitude, quantity, or degree.
Again…..what do you want to deny now….?!
Now that we already know that you like to pigeon-hole your arguments that leave you boxed into a corner….how about entertaining the rest of what your “beloved” states regarding the layers of your cake…
According to your 5 minute “google-job”; the stars adorn the lowest heaven – which corresponds to the “Troposphere” according to the model that you are presently adhering to.
Please tell me exactly how the stars can occupy the closest layer to earth…?
And then…..the moon is set in the middle of the cake layer which would put it above the stars which, we have already been told by the Koran, are on the bottom layer next to the earth…
Finally, the icing on the cake layer is that these stars fight the devils…
Please inform us exactly how this works…
Please give us scientific principle that allows for the stars to exist closest to the earth with our moon residing above the stars.
What is the law of physics that allows for the stars to battle those demons, anyway….?
I can’t wait to see how you avoid these facts that I pointed-out in my first rebuttal to your pathetic rhetoric…
Take care…
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H2O
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Location: Boca Raton, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Apple wrote: | | I can’t wait to see how you avoid these facts that I pointed-out in my first rebuttal to your pathetic rhetoric |
You still didnt answer our questions other than reference word for word from your dictionaries.
Let try this again.
How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ? Where is the preposition "to" coming from ? mithlahunna means their simularity not "al-ardhu wa min mithla lahunna" to which you translated as " the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them". I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
You said that verse says 7 earths would you mind explaining also what is the subject and what is the predicate in
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna..
for you to claim that verse expresses 7 earths ?
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Apple Pie
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H2O
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Location: Boca Raton, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:45 am Post subject: |
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When you answer the questions we can continue cause you havent answered them but merely deviated from them in posting irrelevant data.
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Apple Pie
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Posts: 502
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 01:06 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your comment..
| Quote: | | When you answer the questions we can continue cause you havent answered them but merely deviated from them in posting irrelevant data. |
Please don’t resort to this time-honored excuse of yours.
You are always looking for an excuse to get out of another one of your Koranic jams.
You either claim that no one understands Arabic, or you blindly pretend that no one answers your assertions.
We all know that this is the preferred ignorant Muslim way…but come on….even a bus-boy at a Denny’s restaurant has more self-pride than you have been portraying..
I have repeatedly answered your pigeon-holed question.
If you have a problem with my rebuttal then, systematically show where you differ in your position.
I have clearly laid out my position, and have referenced why your Koran claims seven earths to go along with your seven heavens concept.
Either step up to the plate and systematically refute my rebuttal…or….in your typical fashion….just pretend that I am not answering to your satisfaction… 
I’ll be waiting..
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H2O
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 01:11 am Post subject: |
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Just as your bad grammar in wanting to interpret a language you dont even speak or understand you did not answer any of these question.
* How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ?
* Where is the preposition "to" coming from ?
* I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
* You said that verse says 7 earths would you mind explaining also what is the subject and what is the predicate in
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna..
for you to claim that verse expresses 7 earths ?
You answered none of these question but resorted to irrelevant responses with word for word dicitionary quotes that have nothing to do with the above questions.
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Apple Pie
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Posts: 502
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 01:20 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your reply….
I must say…you sound a little testy…something wrong…?
I must be hitting a sensitive area...
| Quote: | | Just as your bad grammar in wanting to interpret a language you dont even speak or understand you did not answer any of these question. |
Exactly as I just finished saying….your default is to claim that no one can understand the classic Arabic…
Please tell me…is that why you invested $175 in classic Arabic Lexicons….because you already knew what you were speaking…?
You’re not making much sense….
| Quote: | * How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ?
* Where is the preposition "to" coming from ?
* I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
* You said that verse says 7 earths would you mind explaining also what is the subject and what is the predicate in
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna..
for you to claim that verse expresses 7 earths ?
You answered none of these question but resorted to irrelevant responses with word for word dicitionary quotes that have nothing to do with the above questions. |
Great…..like a broken record….
I have a great idea….
Why not critique my responses (rather than blindly stating that they do not suit you)…that way we can see who has the better understanding of the text…
Up for that…?
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H2O
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 01:25 am Post subject: |
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Lets try this again.
* How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ?
* Where is the preposition "to" coming from ?
* I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
* You said that verse says 7 earths would you mind explaining also what is the subject and what is the predicate in
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna..
for you to claim that verse expresses 7 earths ?
Care to answer these questions ? And no you do not understand Classical Arabic when you dont even understand arabic grammar.
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Apple Pie
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 01:31 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Should I take this response as you are afraid to post and critique my responses…?
You won’t even acknowledge my responses – you flat out won’t even quote them – much less discuss them…
The only thing that you can do now is to spew forth that you cannot accept them…..that somehow they do not satisfy what you wanted to hear…
You won’t make any brownie points with the bus boys this way…
Please….carry on in your cowardly Muslim way…and pretend that I said nothing…..Mo would prefer it to be this way…
Thanks…
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H2O
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 01:33 am Post subject: |
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(((Yawns)))
Still waiting for you to answer the simple questions, thats if you understand arabic grammar. Its easy to pick up a dictionary to look up words but what they mean in their usage is determined by the grammar. Care to asnwer the questions below ?
* How does mithlahunna mean " similuar to them" ?
* Where is the preposition "to" coming from ?
* I would like to know how a possesive case became a preposition ?
* You said that verse says 7 earths would you mind explaining also what is the subject and what is the predicate in
Allahu allathee khalaqa sabAAa samawatin wamina al-ardi mithlahunna..
for you to claim that verse expresses 7 earths ?
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Kai Hagbard
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Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 459
Location: Europe-Asia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 08:40 am Post subject: |
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From H2O's previous reply:
| Quote: | Kai wrote:
I did the test as you challenged me to do, and the number of layers in the atmosphere, according to that website, which I assume is modern science, clearly states that the the atmosphere consists of 5 layers, not seven.
H2O replies:
But your finding before the test said somewhere between 9-11. Now we come to another source that says 5 that doesnt even give the option above 7.
Kai wrote:
If the website or modern science is correct...
H2O replies:
The Web site is based on Modern science. Now what happened to your statement :
Kai wrote:
Personally, I believe that science has not discovered the full picture yet, and possible never will.
H2O replies
In which you express that modern science is not in total agreement as to the exact number whereas sources contradict each other. There for the Quranic expression of seven cannot be contested against until an absolute number is determined, just as the Quran says the heaven refering to the Universe as we believe will fold up confirming the theory of contraction rather than infinite expansion whihc again is not total agreement with each other
|
:-?
Basically you have been debunked H2O
Do you expect me to keep on repeating myself, may I just suggest that you look at my previous replies.
No let me just clarify the matter one last time:
| Quote: | Kai wrote:
I did the test as you challenged me to do, and the number of layers in the atmosphere, according to that website, which I assume is modern science, clearly states that the the atmosphere consists of 5 layers, not seven.
H2O replies:
But your finding before the test said somewhere between 9-11. Now we come to another source that says 5 that doesnt even give the option above 7. |
Kai replies:
Let me repeat myself, from repeating myself even earlier:
| Quote: | | Well, I can only repeat myself. I am very critical of modern science, I make no claims about the number of layers in the atmosphere. |
Will you please let it sink in this time.
I PERSONALLY MAKE NOT CLAIMS.
I have merely referred to the fact that scientists are not in agreements as to the actual number of atmospheric layers.
Some of my readings, which I do not necessarily agree with (simply because I dont know), reveals that modern scientists, NOT ME, suggest possibly 9 to 11 atmospheric layers.
I mentioned this merely to point out that the Koran does not cohere with modern scientific postulates.
So let me expound this a bit further, I have not changed my mind from 9 to 11 layers to 5.
I have never personally stated that there are 9 to 11 layers, I have referred to those who make the claim, to debunk your claim that these individuals give credit to the Koran, got it.
Secondly, I have never claimed that there are 5 layers, I have never changed my mind to five layers, since I dont know if there are 9 layers.
I simply referred to the number of 5 layers, since you got me into making scientific test, which you hoped would back up your claims, but which to your chock, revealed that modern science (NOT ME) predicts 5 layers not seven.
Do I need to clarify myself any futher? By now it should be pretty obvious.
H20 continues
| Quote: | Kai wrote:
If the website or modern science is correct...
H2O replies:
The Web site is based on Modern science. Now what happened to your statement : |
Kai responds:
What statement? Where did I state that modern science is correct, look at my wording again, please, I said:
| Quote: | | 'If the website or modern science is correct...' |
Thus the word 'if' say something
Your are playing with words bro, this is called misquoting or taking things out of context.
H20 continues:
| Quote: | Kai wrote:
Personally, I believe that science has not discovered the full picture yet, and possible never will. |
kai responds:
This personal oppinion should answer you previous question, right?
H2O replies to my statement above:
| Quote: | | In which you express that modern science is not in total agreement as to the exact number whereas sources contradict each other. There for the Quranic expression of seven cannot be contested against until an absolute number is determined, just as the Quran says the heaven refering to the Universe as we believe will fold up confirming the theory of contraction rather than infinite expansion whihc again is not total agreement with each other |
Kai responds:
So now you are the one changing your mind. Remember you are the one who claimed that modern science consisted with scientific predictions in the Koran.
How can you now state that the Koran will then remain intact until the actual number of layers as been determined. If you have changed your mind because you now realise that your previous postulate was wrong, then fine, I will accept that. However, if you know state that you never made a claim, then I question your integrity.
If you are willing to discuss the matter of Big Bang and expansion, etc, I will be more than happy.
But do yourself a favor, avoid the same mistake. Remember, now we are moving from the matter of atmosphere (which is complicated enough), to what you call unseen realities, in which everything remains a matter of highly changable speculation.
Go ahead bro, maybe start of with the Big Bang, what is the Koran saying about the actual origins of the universe? |
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H2O
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Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 01:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kai wrote: | Some of my readings, which I do not necessarily agree with (simply because I dont know), reveals that modern scientists, NOT ME, suggest possibly 9 to 11 atmospheric layers.
I mentioned this merely to point out that the Koran does not cohere with modern scientific postulates |
How can you say that Quran does not cohere with modern scientific postulates when they are in disagreement themselves. As a matter of fact some do support of 7 atmospheres:
http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Atmosphere/beginner/layers-01.html
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/studyguide_ch7.html
http://royal.okanagan.bc.ca/mpidwirn/atmosphereandclimate/atmslayers.html
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:fHngVztPwE4J:www.videodiscovery.com/Suppl/ATM_MS_1.pdf+Earth%27s+atmosphere+has+seven+layers&hl=en
| Kai wrote: | | So now you are the one changing your mind. Remember you are the one who claimed that modern science consisted with scientific predictions in the Koran. |
We havent changed our mind in anthing we were just merely expounding on the logic of your conclusions. We said with firmness:
| H2O wrote: | | Quran stated there are 7, thats what we believe confirming other cosmotologists who concluded 7 |
We have believes such a thing before they even discovered that there were multiple atmospheres mereles a sky that acted like a protecting roof.
| Kai wrote: | | How can you now state that the Koran will then remain intact until the actual number of layers as been determined. |
That has been an islamic belief before modern science founded such a plurality in the atmopher, and it will remain as an Islamic belief.
| Kai wrote: | | If you have changed your mind because you now realise that your previous postulate was wrong, then fine, I will accept that |
We havent change our mind in anything. You inclinded to sources that support 9-11 and we incline to sources that confirm the Quranic statement of seven. So according to your fork in the road statements based on conflicting sources there is nothing to approve or disapprove the notion of 7 atmospheres.
[/quote]
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Kai Hagbard
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Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 459
Location: Europe-Asia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 03:57 pm Post subject: |
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H2O posted:
| Quote: | Kai wrote:
Some of my readings, which I do not necessarily agree with (simply because I dont know), reveals that modern scientists, NOT ME, suggest possibly 9 to 11 atmospheric layers.
I mentioned this merely to point out that the Koran does not cohere with modern scientific postulates
H2O replies:
How can you say that Quran does not cohere with modern scientific postulates when they are in disagreement themselves. |
Kai replies:
Look at it from this angle, modern science clearly reveals its inconsistence on this particular matter. The various postulates vary from 5 to possibly over 20 layers. Sadly, you pick those out who seem most consistent to your own speculation.
Let me further expound on this, the Quran does not cohere with modern scientific postulates of any opinion, as your interpretation of the Koran, is wrong. The Koran nowhere speaks about seven layers in the atmosphere, but seven heavens.
H20 wrote:
Kai replies:
As a matter of fact, not all these websites propose seven layers, secondly, those who do, exclude various of the layers.
H20 posted:
| Quote: | Kai wrote:
So now you are the one changing your mind. Remember you are the one who claimed that modern science consisted with scientific predictions in the Koran.
H20 replied
We havent changed our mind in anthing we were just merely expounding on the logic of your conclusions. We said with firmness: |
Kai replies:
Sounded more like a change of mind to me.
H2O posted:
| Quote: | H2O wrote:
Quran stated there are 7, thats what we believe confirming other cosmotologists who concluded 7
We have believes such a thing before they even discovered that there were multiple atmospheres mereles a sky that acted like a protecting roof. |
Kai replies:
The Koran never states that there are seven layers in the atmosphere, it states that there are seven heavens.
Secondly, how are modern cosmologies able to confirm the matter, if they are all in inconsistence.
H20 posted:
| Quote: | Kai wrote:
If you have changed your mind because you now realise that your previous postulate was wrong, then fine, I will accept that
H20 replied:
We havent change our mind in anything. You inclinded to sources that support 9-11 and we incline to sources that confirm the Quranic statement of seven. So according to your fork in the road statements based on conflicting sources there is nothing to approve or disapprove the notion of 7 atmospheres. |
Kai replies:
1. Your previous post clearly revealed a new statement.
2. I never inclinded to sources that supported 9-11 layers, I used them to debunk that science does not support your 7 layers theory.
3. How can i incline to something if I have nothing to approve or disapprove?
4. Did your really read my previous posts? |
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H2O
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 05:12 pm Post subject: |
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Embryology In The Quran
Does any one here know about Embryology ? I would say if your a guy more than likely you wouldnt have the foggiest about plasma and cell generation and how cells reproduce and how chromosomes interact or how they are excited. Most of you who have an Idea of Embryology came in contact with it based on exposure of the Quran that influenced you to learn more about it.
This particular subject can be lengthy. We will make this short as possible.
"A brief summary of how we are created according to modern science"
The human being is created from two plasma cells called an Ovum and a Sperm. The terms "Ovum" and "Sperm" are of course modern medical terminologies in which such terms have never been used 1400 years ago.
The "Ovum" only carries the "X" Chromosome attributing the masculine gene whereas the "Sperm" carries both "X" and "Y" chromosomes attributing the feminine gene that determines the gender of the human being.
"Cell Productivity"
The "Ovum" is a cell made up mostly of plasma and other chemical properies. This cell takes about 40 days for the female ovary to produce which is called a follicle where it becomes a mature cell before the ovalation period
When the Ovum is release from the Ovary it rests in the Oviduct to await fertilazation
Example 1
Example 2
The "Sperm" is also a cell made up mostly of plasma and other chemical properties. This cell takes about a day for the male Seminiferous Tubules to produce.
Before ejaculation the sperm passes through multiple ducts and glands where it mixes with multiple fluids to aid it in fertilization. After ejaculation I THINK YOU ALL GET THE PICTURE FROM HERE millions of sperm are emited which travel through the Fallopian tube to where the "Ovum" is at rest. After fetilization the "Ovum" moves to the Uterus where it implants it self in which the embryo development begins.
How does the Quran reflect this ?
ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَّكِينٍ
thumma ja'alnaahu nutfatan fee qaraarim-makeenin 23:13
thumma {and then} ja'al { place } naa {We} hu {him} nutfatan ( a trickler) fee {into} qaraarin {a rester/settler} makeenin {an implanter}
{and then We place him as a trickler into something that rests and implants}
The word "Nutfah" or "Nutfat" is understood in the Arabic language as the "Sperm". However this is not the original meaning of the word which is mereless a modern scientific term. The Arabic word "Nutfah" is a feminine verbal noun originally meaning "A trickler" or something that trickles. The Quran also defines it as an "amshaaj" meaning etymologically " a mixture" or something that mixes" and linguistically "a germ".
[80:19] Verily We create mankind from a mixing trickler (Nutfatin amshaajin) for Us to try him, and We made for him hearing and sight.
The Quran clearly distinguishes the "Nutfah" {Trickler} from the semen which is only from Semen.
[75:37]Is he (man) not a Nutfah from semen emitted ?
This thing that we are created from called a Nutfah is place INTO a qaraarim-makeenin which expresses in Arabic "something that rests and implants" which are verbal masculine nouns is in the masculine gender.
We gather three discriptions of this thing that is PLACE INTO something that rests and implants.
1) "Nutfah" this thing is called by deffinition as a "Trickler or Something that trickles"
2) It is a Mixture or Something that Mixes and is also a germ
3) it is FROM semen but not semen.
Facts:
In modern science we are created from a single "Sperm" that fetilizes an egg or Ovum by penetrating INTO it to.
Quran says:
{and then We place him as a trickler into something that rests and implants}22:13
Facts:
The Sperm trickles in its movements:
Quran says:
{and then We place him as a trickler into something that rests and implants}22:13
Facts:
The Sperm penetrates into an Ovum that rests and implants.
Quran says:
{and then We place him as a trickler into something that rests and implants}22:13
Facts:
Before ejaculation the sperm passes through multiple ducts and glands where it mixes with multiple fluids to aid it in fertilization
Quran says:
[80:19] Verily We create mankind from a mixing trickler (Nutfatin amshaajin) for Us to try him, and We made for him hearing and sight
Facts:
Sperm is from Semen :
Quran says:
[75:37]Is he (man) not a Nutfah from semen emitted ?
| Quote: | H2O Wrote:
Would you like to go into the Embryology factors ?
Kai Replies:
No, I think Loki effectively ripped you into pieces on that one in an earlier post. Let’s rather stay on the same line, that of cosmology. |
You are obviously talking about our little show down. Of course you would say that, if you said opposite it would go against what you believe. Anyhow it not a matter of you to decide but for our audience whom can click on this link http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?p=41166#41166 to get the full picture of the debate.
Its funny how we never claimed victory in a debate with any of you but for some reason you all do not allowing our audience to decide that for themselves.
| Kai wrote: | The Koran nowhere speaks about seven layers in the atmosphere, but seven heavens......
The Koran never states that there are seven layers in the atmosphere, it states that there are seven heavens.... |
You give people the impression that you have studied the Quran before.
The Quran never says "heaven" it say "samaawaat" meaning firmaments or skies, singular "samaa'a", which does not mean heaven as to the place of peace where the righteous will inherit. That is a seperate word called "Jannah".
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and of the Earth their simularity....65:12
And We constructed a roof over you all firmly as seven 78:12
He is who made for you all the Earth as a bed and the sky as a roof structure.... 2:21
Which are also called tracks, ways or paths.
and indeed We have created already above you all seven tracks and We are not heedless of the creation 23:17
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Loki
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H2O
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 09:30 pm Post subject: |
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We been through this already.
| Loki wrote: | and have you ever read the article i gave you?
concerning Embryology in the quran? |
Which was based on a translators understanding of the verse and not what the Arabic original says as to which we have presented above what the Arabic expresses and this is what we have found in the literal sense as the Quran expressed it and not through someone elses interpretation that decline from its actual meaning.
Now again Loki if you would like to continue this little grudge match again as was on that other thread that we both quoted, in which I hope our audience have enough sense to read the entire debate between us both, you evaded answering simple questions like
* Does the sperm trickle ?
* Does the sperm mix
* Is the sperm placed INTO something that rests and implants ?
* Does the Ovum rest and implant ?
You sources do not address these issue that you so galantly keep making reference to, that argue against a translators interpretation rather than the Quran it self.
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H2O
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 09:36 pm Post subject: |
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We will later post to those issues that that website brought up that have abosolutley no relevance to the Arabic.
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Apple Pie
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Perhaps, instead of jumping from the frying pan (Cosmology) into the fire (embryology)l you could show a little respect for the theme that we are working on……and that is Cosmology…
Koranic embryology is no more than a knock-off of the scriptures taken from the book of Job…surely your have already made this connection……then again, working at the restaurant does seem to have dulled your “theology” degree considerably…
Since you are stuck on your denial of the Koranic rendering of seven earths to compliment the seven heavens as stated in 65:12…how about moving onto 41:12 in which the stars populate the lowest troposphere…?
Then…after that, we could discuss exactly how the stars shoot down the devils….
Is it a starship cruiser in disguise….?
Thanks..
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H2O
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 02:51 am Post subject: |
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| Apple wrote: | Perhaps, instead of jumping from the frying pan (Cosmology) into the fire (embryology)l you could show a little respect for the theme that we are working on……and that is Cosmology…
Koranic embryology is no more than a knock-off of the scriptures taken from the book of Job…surely your have already made this connection……then again, working at the restaurant does seem to have dulled your “theology” degree considerably… |
Sounds like your hungry, want a Snicker ?
| Apple wrote: | | Since you are stuck on your denial of the Koranic rendering of seven earths to compliment the seven heavens as stated in 65:12 |
Oh you mean your toss salad translation with your own made up grammar.
| Apple wrote: | | Allah is who created seven skies/space(s), and from the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them... |
You did ok until you reached mathlahunna to translate it as equal/similar to them. There is no preposition in the Arabic mathlahunna which is in the possesive case meaning their simularity .
Again where is the preposition "to" coming from ?
baitahunna = their house
aydahunna = their hands
uloomahunna = their knowledge
aalaamahunna = their suffering
Where are you getting a preposition from ?
I can tell you were you got it from "min fasaadika ibsari"
| Apple wrote: | | ..how about moving onto 41:12 in which the stars populate the lowest troposphere…? |
Sure why not but first lets clear up some of your mess.
| Apple wrote: | 41.9 "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in two days, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
41.10 And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in four days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.
41.11 Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They (B) said: "We came obedient."
41.12 So He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in two days, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation , that (is) the glorious'/mighty's , the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation .
The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY places the stars in the lowest of the Seven heavens.
The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 places the creation of the Seven heavens/skies/spaces, AFTER the completion of the Earth.
This is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE as planetary accretion is ONLY possible AFTER star formation has occurred. |
Now lets see where shall we begin ? Lets start with you prejudice translations.
| Apple wrote: | | 41.9 "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in two days, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord. |
Now tell us Apple why did you choose "Planet" how did Muhammad (s.a.w.) know that we lived on a Planet when this statement was made over 1400 years ago ? Those dictionaries you have say the word al-ardh = the Earth/Planet as you have rendered can also mean "the Land, the ground". Why did you choose Planet when it doesnt fit the context ?
| Apple wrote: | | 41.10 And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in four days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners. |
We would agree that it is refering back to al-ardh = the earth. Now at this stage the Earth's sky has not been formed yet so it cant be called a planet, this doesnt happen until the next verse.
Now according to your translation the rawaasiya = anchored mountains are placed on top of the earth which discribes al-ardh = the earth being spoken about here that doesnt have a sky yet is what is under the rawaasiya = anchored mountains.
| Apple wrote: | | 41.11 Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They (B) said: "We came obedient." |
You translation is really silly. How can the earth be a planet before the sky joined together with it ?
The context in the Quran already defined what is mean by al-ardh which is not a planet at this stage but I guess when you dont know grammar you start to invent your own.
| Apple wrote: | | 41.12 So He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in two days, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation , that (is) the glorious'/mighty's , the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation . |
Apple which is it space or sky ? You expect anyone to understand this Lego translation ?
Here is the key phrase
وَأَوْحَى فِي كُلِّ سَمَاء أَمْرَهَا
wa awhaa fee kulla samaa'a amrahaa
...and He inspired into every sky its order...
Now the clause switches to all skies, not just the firmaments of the Earth, that is followed with:
وَزَيَّنَّا السَّمَاء الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَحِفْظًا
wa zayyannaas-samaa'ad-dunyaa bimasaaabeeha wa hifdzhaa
and we decorated the nearer sky with stars and a guard..
Tell us Apple why did you translate the word addunyaa as the present world's in the possessive when your sources tell you it has multiple meanings such as Less, closer, nearer, lower, smaller or better ? You just chose the one best for your criticism.
You translated it in the possesive when there is no Kasrah or kasratain. The Phrase is all in the accusative in which "addunyaa" is the adjective modifying assamaa'a = the sky.
I think we are going to leave this just as. All you have been doing is perverting the meaning of the Quran for your own malicious purposes. You cannot translated arabic without out knowing Arabic grammar in which you are void of making up your own grammar as you go along.
We bring this issue to a close with you Apple almufsid.
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Loki
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 03:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Which was based on a translators understanding of the verse and not what the Arabic original says |
Did you acctually read the site? they use the arabic verse in question from the start! not any translation. The guy making that rebutal is even arabic speaking in his first language, wich by that has more knowledge about the language then you!
| Quote: | | as to which we have presented above what the Arabic expresses and this is what we have found in the literal sense as the Quran expressed it and not through someone elses interpretation that decline from its actual meaning. |
as long as it's a person reading a book, the interpretation of a particular verse will always happen by someone's viewpoint. Wheter that be yours or his interpretation. The one most correct is the one with the most back up for it's interpretation, you my friend don't have that back up to that 'scientific' interpretation it's full of loose ends... you only believe this because a large body of believers believe this... yet unfortunatly for you, many wrongs don't make a right.
| Quote: | | Now again Loki if you would like to continue this little grudge match again as was on that other thread that we both quoted, in which I hope our audience have enough sense to read the entire debate between us both, you evaded answering simple questions like |
I...??? evaded answering simple questions??? aren't we turning the tables now, i refuted every claim that supports a embryologic miracle.
you we're the one unable answering me.
* The quran has no scientific defenitions for the words used in that particular verse (a trickler, a thing, the chewing, a rester, an implanter, etc...) therefore you are the one giving defenitions too it, not the quran... the quran is in need of your knowledge and not the other way around.
* I have showed you that embryology was allready known, thousands of year prior to muhammed's vague sentence. Making it not a miracle but a referance to a known knowledge of that time.
* as have i shown you how broad you can take a vague sentence if the things in it, aren't specified.
| Quote: | * Does the sperm trickle ?
* Does the sperm mix
* Is the sperm placed INTO something that rests and implants ?
* Does the Ovum rest and implant ? |
Does the quran say all that? no, it doesn't
this is your science friendly version.
| Quote: | | You sources do not address these issue that you so galantly keep making reference to, that argue against a translators interpretation rather than the Quran it self. |
It's the same thing basiclly, wheter i debunk it with showing that such science was allready something obsolete, and/or that it's contence of that certain science is wrong, incomplete and vague. Or if some translator points out the bad reasoning behind seeking embryology in the quran.
It all commes down to the same thing, it's not science and it's not a miracle! |
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H2O
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | H2O Wrote:
* Does the sperm trickle ?
* Does the sperm mix
* Is the sperm placed INTO something that rests and implants ?
* Does the Ovum rest and implant ?
Loki Responded:
Does the quran say all that? no, it doesn't
this is your science friendly version. |
It says we are created from a thing that trickles that is place into something that rests and implants
ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَّكِينٍ
and then We place him as a trickler into something that rests and implants 23:13
then it continues
[23:14] Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings and then We made the thing that clings as a chewing, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) [b]brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers.[/b]
Here are some microscopic images to see exactly what the Quran is discribing before we are brought out.
Are we made from something that clings (True of False)
Then the thing that clings is made as a chewing (True or False)
   
And then the chewing is made as bones (True or False)
  
And then the bones are are clothed with mucles (True or False)
 
We will be right back with that site you referenced
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Loki
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: |
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one simple question H20?
are these pictures included in the quran or not?
if not, then you are asserting things on your behalf too words wich haven't been defined by the quran... you're using two books at the moment not one.
modern science is very demanding, if you can't live up to the basic requirements then why go any further? |
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Apple Pie
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 01:07 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H20,
Thanks for having the courtesy to put aside your ADHD induced koranic “embryology” post long enough to make a half-hearted Cosmology reply. It is better to stay focused on one topic at a time…..would you not agree?
Your “embryology” post can be easily refuted in another thread…
Let’s review what you have for me today…
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
Allah is who created seven skies/space(s), and from the earth/Planet Earth equal/similar to them...
You did ok until you reached mathlahunna to translate it as equal/similar to them. There is no preposition in the Arabic mathlahunna which is in the possesive case meaning their simularity .
Again where is the preposition "to" coming from ?
baitahunna = their house
aydahunna = their hands
uloomahunna = their knowledge
aalaamahunna = their suffering
Where are you getting a preposition from ?
I can tell you were you got it from "min fasaadika ibsari" |
Hmmm…still not willing to step up to the plate and actually make a DIRECT response to my rebuttals…?
What are you afraid of…..?
A comparison has been made in this ayah. The comparison is between the heaven(s) AND “wa” the earth(s). Heaven and earth are concomitted together. They’re compared directly to one another. They are similitudes to each other. Hence, in the definition of “mithlahunna”, it is clear that the earth is being compared “to” the heaven via “wa”.
I find it quite humorous that you completely and utter ignore the unimpeachable definitions that I posited for “mithlahunna”. In keeping with the quintessential ignorant Muslim way, you don’t even entertain anything that jeopardizes your bias – and the classic definitions for “mithlahunna” coupled with “wa” totally decimates your pathetic unreferenced position.
Let me post the definitions once more for them to sink into your thickness…
Definition for “mithlahunna”…
Similitude:
Means counterpart – duplicate – consisting of or existing in two corresponding or identical parts or examples - complement – a thing that fits another perfectly - one remarkably similar to another - one having the same function or characteristics as another
Analogue:
Something that is analogous or similar to something else. The etymology of analogous gives us the literal definition of proportionate. If something is proportionate, then it is equal in symmetry, magnitude, quantity, or degree.
And….the prefixed conjunction linking “samawatin” and “al-ardi”…
و = “wa”
“wa” definition:
An inseparable prefixed conjunction; And; Also; But; Whilst, At; Together; With. It is used as a conjunction, unrestricted conjunction, and is expressive of concomitance, particle used for swearing (by God).
The implications of “wa”…
Conjunction:
An uninflected linguistic form that joins together sentences, clauses, phrases, or words
The act or an instance of conjoining : the state of being conjoined; to join together (as separate entities) for a common purpose; Combination.
Occurrence together in time or space : Concurrence; the simultaneous occurrence of events or circumstances.
Concomitance:
Accompaniment; an addition intended to give completeness or symmetry; compliment; an accompanying situation or occurrence.
Oh…and by the way….just pretend that I stated nothing….per your usual….
I would expect that you could at least produce a fictitious reference source to back up your assertions – much like you did several months ago when you first made your pathetic attempt at salvaging Koranic Cosmology before you had actually made your cherished Lexical purchase with your hard earned $ from running the restaurant biz with your “theology” degree..
Muslims….first they take their scriptures out of context, then can’t back them up with verifiable references…..simply amazing….
Just face the facts….you don’t have a leg to stand on with your sorry attempt at reconciling the faulty Koranic cosmology. It is simply flawed. Thus….it is crystal clear that the Koran is man-made….
I have to ask this question of you; why do you think that Lane remained a devout Christian after devoting 34 years of his life to the in-depth understanding of the classic Arabic and its usage in the Koran? No one knew the classic Arabic of the Koran better than Lane, and yet he was NOT convinced at all that it contained truth over that of the Holy Bible.
Lane also spent copious amounts of time correlating Biblical Hebrew scriptures to science.
Think that he could do the same with the Koran?
It is clear that he, himself, could see that the Koran was defunct in its copied explanations in all areas that pertained to the testable sciences. That is why he remained unswayed by the material contained in the Koran…
If you truly respect Lane’s truthfulness and unbiased approach to the Arabic (like you said that you did), then I would expect you would want to follow his example.
Unless, of course, you want to add your prior statement(s) to your ever-growing pile of lies…
Furthermore, we can clearly see that my understanding of this ayah is the same as others…
Y.Ali Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.
R.Khalifa GOD created seven universes and the same number of earths. The commands flow among them. This is to let you know that GOD is Omnipotent, and that GOD is fully aware of all things
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
41.9 "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in two days, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
41.10 And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in four days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.
41.11 Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They (B) said: "We came obedient."
41.12 So He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in two days, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation , that (is) the glorious'/mighty's , the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation .
The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY places the stars in the lowest of the Seven heavens.
The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 places the creation of the Seven heavens/skies/spaces, AFTER the completion of the Earth.
This is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE as planetary accretion is ONLY possible AFTER star formation has occurred.
Now lets see where shall we begin ? Lets start with you prejudice translations.
Apple wrote:
41.9 "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in two days, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
Now tell us Apple why did you choose "Planet" how did Muhammad (s.a.w.) know that we lived on a Planet when this statement was made over 1400 years ago ? |
Now….why would you presume that it was your beloved “prophet” that wrote the Koran in the first place…?
It is clear that he never penned the text that you today hold in your hands. In fact, the Koran falls all over itself stating that it only imitates Biblical alkitabu….
| Quote: | | Those dictionaries you have say the word al-ardh = the Earth/Planet as you have rendered can also mean "the Land, the ground". Why did you choose Planet when it doesnt fit the context ? |
Because it does fit the context.
Remember, you are Muslim…..and Muslims, by general rule, do not need to reference the context of anything….am I right….?
Let’s review 41.9…
Say: "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO DAYS, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
Qul a-innakum latakfuroona biallathee khalaqa al-arda fee yawmayni watajAAaloona lahu andadan thalika rabbu alAAalameena
Comments:
1) “Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO DAYS…”
2) AND, “you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.”
41.9 Summary:
1) Earth was created in TWO days.
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
41.10 And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in four days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.
We would agree that it is refering back to al-ardh = the earth. |
Of course you have to agree that “it” refers to the earth.
This is because it is conjoined via the conjunction “wa” just as the seven heavens and seven earths are conjoined in 65.12… remember….?
Thanks for finally seeing the error of your ways….
| Quote: | | Now at this stage the Earth's sky has not been formed yet so it cant be called a planet, this doesnt happen until the next verse. |
Oh really….?
Then what are the mountains standing on? Thin air? What does “from above it” mean?
You cannot have mountains unless they reside on a surface.
Just like before, you missed the point of reference for this Koranic sequence.
| Quote: | | Now according to your translation the rawaasiya = anchored mountains are placed on top of the earth which discribes al-ardh = the earth being spoken about here that doesnt have a sky yet is what is under the rawaasiya = anchored mountains. |
Again…..the mountains reside upon what…?
Let’s review 41.10…
And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR DAYS, straight/equal to the askers/questioners .
WajaAAala feeha rawasiya min FAwqiha wabaraka feeha waqaddara feeha aqwataha fee arbaAAati ayyamin sawaan lilssa-ileena
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is the earth’s surface.
1) AND, “He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it….”
2) AND, “He blessed in it….”
3) AND, “He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR DAYS, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.”
41.10 Summary:
1) The Mountains were created as viewed from the Earth’s surface – hence the earth was solid. It was a planet.
2) He made a food provision in FOUR DAYS.
3) 41.9 (2 Days)…..plus……41.10 (4 Days)……equals 6 Days.
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
41.11 Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They (B) said: "We came obedient."
You translation is really silly. How can the earth be a planet before the sky joined together with it ? |
Well…thanks for putting your science ignorance on full throttle once again.
Why don’t you take a brief “google” and discover how planets form via accretion. Besides, you totally missed your Mountains cue….
| Quote: | | The context in the Quran already defined what is mean by al-ardh which is not a planet at this stage but I guess when you dont know grammar you start to invent your own. |
41.9 begins it narration from the surface of the earth. How could you have possibly missed the clues that everything from this ayah onwards is referenced from the surface of the earth…
Let’s review 41.11…
THEN He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, SO He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They said: "We came obedient."
THUMMA istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun FAqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is still the earth’s surface.
1) THEN, he aimed/tended to the sky-space when it is smoke/fumes.
2) THEN, he says to the sky/space AND to the Earth “"You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily.”
3) The sky/space say, “We came obedient."
41.11 Summary:
1) From the vantage point of the Earth’s surface, allah turns to the sky and it is smoke.
2) Then he calls to the heavens and earth to come.
3) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……equals 6 Days.
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
41.12 So He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in two days, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation , that (is) the glorious'/mighty's , the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation .
Apple which is it space or sky ? You expect anyone to understand this Lego translation ?
Here is the key phrase
وَأَوْحَى فِي كُلِّ سَمَاء أَمْرَهَا
wa awhaa fee kulla samaa'a amrahaa
...and He inspired into every sky its order... |
Thanks for just confirming that my translation is correct…
| Quote: | Now the clause switches to all skies, not just the firmaments of the Earth, that is followed with:
وَزَيَّنَّا السَّمَاء الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَحِفْظًا
wa zayyannaas-samaa'ad-dunyaa bimasaaabeeha wa hifdzhaa
and we decorated the nearer sky with stars and a guard..
Tell us Apple why did you translate the word addunyaa as the present world's in the possessive when your sources tell you it has multiple meanings such as Less, closer, nearer, lower, smaller or better ? You just chose the one best for your criticism.
You translated it in the possesive when there is no Kasrah or kasratain. The Phrase is all in the accusative in which "addunyaa" is the adjective modifying assamaa'a = the sky. |
For the same reason that you are rendering it as “the nearer sky”. It is the lowest one on the Koranic rung. It is the bottom of the Seven. The one closest to the earth. Hence, the difficulty in making this fit with established science.
I can feel your pain at this point…
Let’s review 41.12…
SO He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in TWO DAYS, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation .
FAqadahunna sabAAa samawatin fee yawmayni waawha fee kulli sama-in amraha wazayyanna alssamaa alddunya bimasabeeha wahifthan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is STILL the earth’s surface.
1) THEN, he accomplished them (the sky/space AND the earth) as seven skies/spaces in TWO days.
2) AND, “He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command….”
3) AND, “We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars….”
4) AND, “a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation.”
41.12 Summary:
1) allah creates seven heavens in TWO DAYS.
2) He places the stars in the LOWEST of the seven heavens.
3) He makes the stars for protection.
4) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……41:12 (2 Days)…equals 8 Days!
Integrated Summary:
1) “Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO days…”
2) AND, “you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.”
3) AND, “He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it….”
4) AND, “He blessed in it….”
5) AND, “He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.”
6) THEN, he aimed/tended to the sky-space when it was smoke/fumes.
7) THEN, he says to the sky/space AND to the Earth “"You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily.”
8 ) The sky/space say, “We came obedient."
9) THEN, he accomplished them (the sky/space AND the earth) as seven skies/spaces in TWO days.
10) AND, “He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command….”
11) AND, “We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars….”
12) AND, “a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation.”
Conclusions:
1) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 DIRECTLY contradicts the (7X) 6-day verses that reside within the Koran.
The Koran is in Great error here.
How many days in creation? 6,7,8?!
Strike #1.
2) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 places the creation of the Seven heavens/skies/spaces, AFTER the completion of the Earth.
This is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE as planetary accretion is ONLY possible AFTER star formation has occurred.
Thus, the Koran is in Great error here, as well.
Strike #2.
3) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 has the earth COMPLETED AND FURNISHED with food provision BEFORE the Sun is created!
Sorry, but major gaff here.
The sun is required not only for heat and photosynthesis, but also for metabolism.
NO Sun…NO life!
Strike #3.
4) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY mentions Seven heavens.
Sorry, but there are NOT Seven heavens in the Universe.
Thus, the Koran is in Great error here, as well.
Strike #4.
5) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY places the stars in the lowest of the Seven heavens.
Sorry, but this is yet another Koranic blunder. The Stars are NOT limited to some fictitious Lower Seventh heaven.
Strike #5.
6) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY states that the Stars are placed in heaven for protection.
This is yet another unscientific fabrication.
The Koran twisted the meaning of this phrase right from the Book of Revelation.
Strike # 6.
I’m sure that YOU will come to appreciate the Koran for what it is…just as I have.
| Quote: | I think we are going to leave this just as.
All you have been doing is perverting the meaning of the Quran for your own malicious purposes. You cannot translated arabic without out knowing Arabic grammar in which you are void of making up your own grammar as you go along.
We bring this issue to a close with you Apple almufsid. |
Great….now you decide to skip-out on the cosmology discussion that you, yourself, initiated….and right before the punch-line of how and why the stars fight off those devils….
I have to know….is it a starship cruiser in disguise…?
Is it battle star Galactica….?
Thanks…
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H2O
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 03:16 am Post subject: |
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Aside from the Ploitical rhetoric the authur starts out with we will get straight to the point.
| Quote: | | Growth of science was slow during the medieval period, and few high points of embryological investigation undertaken during this time are known to us. However, it is cited in the Qur'an (seventh century A.D.), the Holy Book of the Muslims, that human beings are produced from mixture of secretions from the male and female. Several references are made to the creation of a human being from a nutfa (small drop). It also states that the resulting organism settles in the womb like a seed, 6 days after its beginning. Reference is also made to the leechlike appearance of the early embryo. Later, the embryo is said to resemble a "chewed substance." For more information about embryological references in the Qur'an, see Musallam (1990). |
The author quotes Mr Moore in which we disagree with Moores interpretation of Nutfah as a small drop. No where in our presentation of the Arabic that was backed up by dictionaries confirms no such meaning of the word. Thus we did not set an arguement by means of such modern rendering but rendered the word in its original meaning as was understood over 1400 years ago according to its root.
The author says
| Quote: | | First we realize that Moore is not at all familiar with the Qur'an. His claim about "6 days" is no where to be found in the text, thus we realize that Moore probably based his comments on what others told him was in the Qur'an - he had not investigated the text in depth for himself.. |
We realized the same thing from his comments whom never knew the original meaning of the word Nutfah.
| Quote: | | The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed substantially with Galen's scientific account. In De Semine, for example, Galen spoke of four periods in the formation of the embryo: (1) as seminal matter; (2) as a bloody form (still without flesh, in which the primitive heart, liver, and brain are ill-defined); (3) the fetus acquires flesh and solidity (the heart, liver, and brain are well-defined, and the limbs begin formation); and finally (4) all the organs attain their full perfection and the fetus is quickened. There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages: (as in Ibn Sina's account of Galen): nutfa for the first, 'alaqa for the second, "unformed" mudgha for the third, and "formed" mudgha for the fourth. |
The Author dictates Galen whom lays the following which are contradictory to the Quran
(1) as seminal matter
The Quran asserts we are created from a Nutfah and an alaqah which have been distinguished in the Quran from semen.
(2) as a bloody form (still without flesh, in which the primitive heart, liver, and brain are ill-defined);
The Quran makes no mention of blood in the embryo development. This again has nothing to do with what the Arabic actually says but was based on the rendered interpretation of others.
(3) the fetus acquires flesh and solidity (the heart, liver, and brain are well-defined, and the limbs begin formation);
The Quran mentions idzhaam ~ bones first then the bones are clothed with Lahm muscle/flesh (which expresses what holds the bones together) that comes after.
(4) all the organs attain their full perfection and the fetus is quickened.
Quran makes no mention of organs
There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages: (as in Ibn Sina's account of Galen): nutfa[a trickler] for the first, 'alaqa [a clinger] for the second, "unformed" mudgha [a chewing] for the third, and "formed" mudgha for the fourth
Which of course those words do not parallel with Galen's philosophy.
| Quote: | Moore also hints at amazement with the Garbha Upanishad in almost the same breath. Regarding this text, he writes:
A brief Sanskrit treatise on ancient Indian embryology is thought to have been written in 1416 B.C. This scripture of the Hindus, called Garbha Upanishad, describes ancient ideas concerning the embryo. It states:
From the conjugation of blood and semen the embryo comes into existence. During the period favorable to conception, after the sexual intercourse, (it) becomes a Kalada (one-day-old embryo). After remaining seven nights it becomes a vesicle. After a fortnight it becomes a sperical mass. After a month it becomes a firm mass [12] |
Thus again the author unaware of the actual meaning of the words runs down the dirt road with his shoes off to show a parallel of embryology from the Hindu scripture.
(1)From the conjugation of blood and semen the embryo comes into existence.
Quran make no mention that man a created from conjugation of blood or semen. It says man is created from an alaq = clinger and nutfah = trickler . The bones, and the flesh clothing the bones are not even mentioned in the Hindu text.
| Quote: | | Obviously the language is certainly not precise and unambiguous |
I guess this is where you picked up saying " vague " in your statements.
| Quote: | | However, we do strongly object to those who wish to argue that the scientific miracles of the Qur'an are so clear that it is obvious the Qur'an is the word of God. The issue here is an aggressive form of pseudo-apologia that is quite unfounded. |
Actually, it is clear only to those who have knowledge in this scientific field and whom have been introduced to that actual original meanings of the Arabic word aside from their modern terms.
| Quote: | 
khalaqakum min nafsin waahidatin thumma ja'ala minhaa zawjahaa wa anzala lakum mina al-an'aami thamaaniyata azwaajin yakhluqukum fee butooni ummaahatikum khalqan min ba'di khalqin fee thulumaatin thalaathin dhaalikumu Allahu rabbukum lahu al-mulku la ilaha illa huwa faanna tusrafoona
He created you from a single man, then made from it its wife, and He has sent down eight kinds of cattle. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in three veils of darkness, such is Allah your Lord. His is the kingdom, there is no god but He. How can you turn away?
The verse is more a rant on random things rather than any sort of amazingly accurate scientific statement. Nonetheless, the relevant part for Dr. Moore is first the portion that speaks of "creation after creation". However, Moore uses the Yusuf Ali translation, which renders khalqan min ba'di khalqin as "in stages" (note that khalq means "creation," thus the translation used above is more accurate than Yusuf Ali's generalization).
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I would like to know when since the arabic word nafs [a feminine noun] means man. He criticizes Ali but yet but yet falls into a hole himself as the first sentence:
"khalaqakum min nafsin waahidatin thumma ja'ala minhaa zawjahaa " means " He created you all from one single soul (nafsin) and then made from it its companion "
The Author of the website did not realize that the first phrase is all in the femine that is speaking about the creation of the soul inreference to the soul of Adam and his wife and not their physical being.
It is obvious he doesnt know Arabic as teh text does not give the notion of such a thing as he interpreted.
| Quote: | | Moore uses the Yusuf Ali translation, which renders khalqan min ba'di khalqin as "in stages" (note that khalq means "creation," thus the translation used above is more accurate than Yusuf Ali's generalization). |
Of course he knows his audience more than likely are English speaker who more than likely wont know better, but the Arabic word "Khalq" also means creature. I will let you people think about it a little on what a sperm and ovum are.
| Quote: | | From there Moore continues his commentary on Soorat az-Zumar, making the odd claim that the "three veils of darkness" could be a reference to: "(l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane." Upon what this is based, Moore gives no indication, though such exegesis does seem to fall roughly under Rule IV (of the rules noted above). Why should we assume that the author of the Qur'an had these things in mind when he spoke of "three veils of darkness"? Surely the abdominal wall is not "inside the womb," so why not the uterine wall, the amnion, and the chorion? Why not the endometrium, the amnion and the chorion? Why note the uterine wall, endometrium, and amniochorionic membrane? The choice seems rather arbitrary. |
First of all the word hijab or ghishaa meaning veil is no were to be found in the Quranic text of that verse. The text says "zhulumaatin thalaathin" meaning "three darknesses" which is understood in Arabic as three different shades of darkness in the Womb which is not refering to any layers of skin tissue specifically.
| Quote: | | Aristotle actually mentions a meeting of the male and female contributions in the uterus... |
Quran never makes mention of us such a thing.
| Quote: | | ...Furthermore, Aristotle mentions membranes called "choria" that form, and that this happens inside the uterus. Thus we have Aristotle mentioning the chorion, the uterus, and obviously this happens inside the abdomen, so there is your "threefold darkness." |
Unfortunate for him Quran makes no mention of veils.
| Quote: | | Muslims who support the embryology polemic may argue that Aristotle only mentioned the chorion, but not the amnion |
We dont support any of it. If others wich to follow such interpretations without verifying their works this seems to be their problem.
| Quote: | | Such comments are wholly duplicitous, as it means that saying "threefold darkness" is clearly a reference to the abdominal wall, the uterus, and both the amnion and chorion at the same time. So, saying "choria" is only the chorion, but saying "veil/fold of darkness" clearly means the amniochorionic membrane? Indeed, the amnion and chorion are separate, but if we're going to focus on this so closely, why not just assume that the Qur'an got it wrong by not mentioning four folds of darkness (abdomen, uterus, amnion, chorion)? |
Actually if they used the other examples of the Quran that makes mention of Zhulumaat which means darkness in the plural sense is refering to light density as to that of the ocean and clouds. The thicker the water is or the cloud is there is less light which developes into shades of darkness. Light can pass through the human body and skin depending how dense it is ie fat you have on you. Put a flash light to your hand and look from the other side.
| Quote: | | The relevant words in the above are drop (nutfa), clot (alaqa), morsel (mudgha), and bones (izhaam). Dr. Moore wants nutfa to mean "zygote" without any real justification. All the Muslim commentators had nutfa, which is from the Arabic natafa, for to drip, to dribble, to ooze, mean a reference to a seminal discharge. Rather laughably, Dr. Muhammad Saifullaah of Cambridge University noted that a drop can be round, and then further noted that "semen comes out as drops and ovum is also resembles a drop, i.e., it is round-shaped."[18] What a way to correlate "drop" with both the semen and the ovum! Of course, nutfa is not a reference to roundness - the shape is irrelvant, as nutfa is the result of dripping, dribbling, oozing (not necessarily a single drop in mid air). Interestingly, Maurice Bucaille noted that one commentator had it "describe what remains at the bottom of a bucket that has been emptied out."[19] Some have even tried to argue that because the Qur'an later refers to nutfa al-amshaaj ("mixed drop," or "mingled semen"), the plural amshaaj ("mixings") is a reference to chomosomes inside the zygote! |
Is this what you are talkign about ? The original meaning of Nutfah does not mean drop, the origianl meaning alaqa does not mean clot, the original meaing of the word mudhgha does not mean morsel. We never used any of these rendering in our exergeses as posted.
They also contradict the Quran as the Quran distinguishes the Nutfah from the semen.
| Quote: | | Moore goes on to interpret the word alaqa, yet now he is no longer using the Yusuf Ali translation (as Yusuf Ali translates alaqa as "clot of congealed blood"). The translation employed by Moore renders the word as "a leech-like structure." |
Can you please show us Loki where we used these renderings. We backed up our rendering with Lexographies they back there work up with none but interpet from an interpretative opinion.
| Quote: | | This is a rather strained translation. Indeed, one of the possible meanings of alaqa is "leech," but Dr. Moore (or those who advised him) chose "leech-like structure" so as to push the claim that the Qur'an means to argue that the embryo resembles a leech. Of course, the Qur'an does not say the embryo resembles or looks like an alaqa, rather it says it is an alaqa. Regardless, Moore sides with "leech" (see Rule II above), and then from there makes a huge logical leap, concluding that this means the Qur'an is stating that the embryo looks like a leech at 24 days, despite the fact that no date is given (see Rule VI). |
Such meanings rendered are modern medical terminologies. The original meaning of alaqa is something that clings reflecting its root derivitive.
| Quote: | | The point was to then note the similarity between a 24 day old embryo and certain types of leeches. Of course, the logic simply doesn't follow. Another possible meaning (and indeed most translations side with this meaning) is "blood clot". Since this is a possible meaning, we have a natural explanation for a man using "alaqa" to describe the embryo. Of course, because there is no stage at which the embryo is a blood clot (or mass of congealed blood, which is one of the meanings Hans Wehr gave for alaqa), most proponents of the scientific-hermeneutic approach prefer not to choose that as the intended meaning. This is a perfect example of Rules I & II, and is also something that Imran Aijaz touched on when he wrote: |
Quran makes no mention of Blood clot or blood being created from.
| Quote: | | But if this can be considered a scientific miracle, then why not also say the same about Galen, when he described the second stage of embryonic development being one where the embryo is "filled with blood"? |
We presented nothing that parallels with Galen's philisophic explanation which mereles contradicts what the Quran actually says distinguish from interpretations.
| Quote: | | Popular to these same sites is the claim that because the ayn-lam-qaf root from which alaqa is derived can also mean cling, be suspended, hang,[22] this can be correlated with a period where the embryo clings from or is suspended from the umbilical cord which is attached to the uterus. Of course, the umbilical cord is never mentioned, but if we're going to play such games, we can correlate Aristotle with the same period, in light of his far more descriptive depiction: |
Then we can play games to. Make up your mind whom did Muhammad get his info from Galen, Aristotle, the Witch Doctor, Mother Goose, Peter Pan, The Devil, or an Alien ? We can also state that stages are exact with science. When does the clinging start ? Aristotle or Galen make no mention when the clinging occured. The Quran makes mention that the clinging occures after the trickler is placed inside the thing that rests and implants.
Lets take a look of the Authors quote of Aristotle:
| Quote: | | So nature has first designed the two blood vessels from the heart, and from these smaller vessels branch off to the uterus, forming what is called the umbilicus [...] Round these is a skin-like integument, because the weakness of the vessels needs protection and shelter. The vessels join to the uterus like the roots of plants, and through them the embryo receives its nourishment.[23] |
Thus contradicts with the Quran in every manner.
| Quote: | | Aristotle's description is quite accurate, as in early development the umbilical cord is attached to the heart |
This dude is amazing. Look at the picture above which shows when the clinging start that develops into an umbilical cord way before the heart is formed.
| Quote: | | From there we move to mudgha, a word from a root that means to chew or bite. Based on this, one possible translations is "something chewed" (though it can also be a reference to a bite-sized morsel, and most translations render it as a small lump or bite sized piece). Proponents of the scientific-hermeneutic approach then make a wild logical leap and conclude that "chewed" is used as a reference to somites (the early traces of the spine that appear around 27 days). Such a correlation is laughable, but those who push this polemic actually try to do comparisons between a drawing a of a 28 day old embryo and a piece of gum that was deliberately bitten so as to resemble the image. |
Lets see whos laughing at who. It is a wonder why he never shows microscopic images cause they due in fact confirm the Quranic discription.
Then the thing that clings is made as a chewing (True or False)
And then the chewing is made as bones (True or False)
Sure looks like its chewed to me
| Quote: | | One wonders why, if the author of the Qur'an wanted to say that traces of the spine appear between 26 and 28 days, they did not just say so? To claim that the word "chewed" (or "bite sized morsel") is an accurate way of describing the first traces of the spine in the form of somites seems rather cautelous. Proponents of this polemic claim that this was a way to explain development in simple laymen's terms, but if that were the case one would again have to wonder why it took 1400 years for anyone to realize this was what the Qur'an was making reference to? |
Duh, this wasnt founded to confirm Quran until after the microscope was invented and then used in embryo research and developement.
| Quote: | | When we reach izhaam we find another problematic part of the verse. Consider that the text reads: khalaqnaa al-mudghata izhaaman, fa-kasawnaa al-izhaaman laHman. First note that khalaqnaa is past tense, and the pre-fix fa means "then." So the verse reads: "we formed the morsel into bones, then we clothed the bones with flesh." Thus, it implies bone forms before soft tissue, which is a blatant error, not to mention one that parallels Galen |
Obviously this dude doesnt know his embryology. Before the bones are formed the substance is not flesh but plasma organic without blood vessels or a heart. He dares call something an error when he makes an error himself in rendering mudhghaa as morsel. Again his interpretation is done based on the interpretation of others.
Lahm also means muscle as flesh is muscle. The Quran strickle used the word "Clothes" in statement of "Clothes the bones with Lahm" which is entirely refering to muscle tissue.
| Quote: | In the above text we put emphasis on the word thumma ("then"), as there are some who claim this hadith is referring to only a single forty day period (id est, all three stages happen within forty days). Of course, it is only those who have a deep emotional investment in this twisted polemic that would argue such. The text has clearly been understood as being a reference to three forty day periods; consider what Musallam wrote:
[Soorat al-Hajj 22:5 and Soorat al-Moominoon 23:13-14] describe the first three stages of the foetus. The first stage of development, a period of forty days from conception, is the nutfa (semen). The second, also lasting forty days, is the 'alaqa ("blood-like clot"). And the third, another forty days, is the mudgha ("lump of flesh"). In these three early stages the foetus lacks the human soul and has only the life of plants and animals. But at the end of 120 days from conception, the foetus is ensouled. [...] The division of these stages into forty-day periods is not Quranic, but first occurs in the hadith:
The Prophet said: Each of you is constituted in your mother's womb for forty days as a nutfa, then it becomes a [sic] 'alaqa for an equal period, then a mudgha for another equal period, then the angle is sent and he breathes the sould into it. |
Lets see, can someone please show us where in that hadeeth in Arabic it uses the word "Nutfah" .
"...إن أحدكم يجمع خلقه في بطن أمه أربعين يوما ثم يكون في ذلك علقة مثل ذلك ثم يكون في ذلك مضغة..."
..inna (verily) ahadu (everyone) kum (you all) yujma'u (accumulates) khalqa(creation) hu (it) fee (in) baTni (inside) ummi (mothers) hu (it) arba'ien (fourty days) yawman (days) thumma (and then/later) yakoona (become) fee (in) dzaalika (that) alaqatan (a something that clings) mathlu (likewise) dzaalika (that) thumma (and then/later) yakoona (become) fee (in) mudhghatan ( a thing that is chewed)..
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=6152&Tags=&Index=&Search=0&desc=-1&SID=-1&pos=&CurRecPos=&dsd=&ST=&Tag=&SP=
..Verily the creation of everyone of you accumulates inside its mother for fourty days and then (later) it becomes in that a thing that clings, Likwise that (thing) then (later) becomes into a chewing...
Remember "Nutfah" or Sperm is feminine. In the hadith "hu" ~" it " is masculine which is not refering to "Nutfah" which is feminine. The gender here of "hu" is refering to the female Ovum or the "Qararin Makeen" ~ "a thing that sojourns and implants" which is masculine.
In the the light of the Quran, the "hu" ~ "it" that is refered to in the Hadith is the "Qararin Makeen" or the Ovum that takes 40 days or 5-6 weeks as a Follicles to be produced as an Ovum within the Ovary before being released from it.
http://www.endotext.com/female/female13/femaleframe13.htm
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/1/71/F1
Again the Author has based his criticism on the interpretation of others of teh Quranic verses and Hadeeth.
| Quote: | | Thus we see that even Muslim historians read the text the way we have (also note that the Hilaalee-Khan translation of Saheeh Bukhaaree also agrees with our translation). Of course, some may argue that Musallam, Hilaalee, and Khan are modern Muslims. That is fine, as I can also cite a medieval Muslim who understood this as three forty-day periods: Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya. Summarizing and quoting Ibn Qayyim's al-Tibyaan fee Aqsaam al-Qur'aan, (1st ed., Cairo, 1933), p. 337, Musallam wrote the following |
I would agree here, they just didnt understand the hadeeth and contradicted the gender reference of the hadeeth inferes to, whom added there own interpolations such as "Nutfah" to the translation that the hadeeth in Arabic make no mention of.
| Quote: | | We should be able to close here, as the argument has been pretty much demolished in our opinion (though the readers will be the final judge) |
And he is right it is their opinion. All he has done in his illusion is demolished the interpretation of those interpreters but has not approach the Quran in its uninterpreted character in which we have rendered in our previous posts.
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H2O
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 04:04 am Post subject: |
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| Apple wrote: | Furthermore, we can clearly see that my understanding of this ayah is the same as others…
Y.Ali Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.
R.Khalifa GOD created seven universes and the same number of earths. The commands flow among them. This is to let you know that GOD is Omnipotent, and that GOD is fully aware of all things |
Where is number in the text ?
Where is the Plural of earths in the text ?
Alllaahu (Alllaah) alladhee (He who) sab'a (seven) samawaatin ( firmaments) wa (and) min (from) al-ardhi (the earth) mithlahunna (their simularity)...
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and from the Earth their simularity....65:12
It says from the Earth is their simularity. The subject is the seven firmaments with reference to that from the earth is in simularity. The Earth is not the subject spoken of but that which is from the earth that is simular to the seven firmaments is referenced .
All the deffenition you posted above are merely word for word copy from your dictionaries that does not explain how you got the prepostion "to" out of mithlahunna to be simular to them. The phrase "wa minal-ardhi mithlahunna" is in the possesive. Your translation violates the grammarical meaning in which the Quran implies.
There is a big difference in "Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and the Earth is simular to them....65:12
Compared to:
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and from the Earth their simularity....65:12
What is From the earth that is their simularity or as you would say simular to them ?
| Quote: | | I find it quite humorous that you completely and utter ignore the unimpeachable definitions that I posited for “mithlahunna”. In keeping with the quintessential ignorant Muslim way, you don’t even entertain anything that jeopardizes your bias – and the classic definitions for “mithlahunna” coupled with “wa” totally decimates your pathetic unreferenced position. |
Did we ask for individual meaning or grammar meaning ? Seems to me you have a reading problem to. Now again how does mithlahunna mean simular to them when the phrase is in the Possesive. If the phrase is in the possessive then you will have to translate it in the possessive meaning to maintain what is meant. You still haven explained where you got the preposition "to" from.
You posted up all these meanings that are not your own. Your just making you self sound like you know what you are talking about while in fact you dont know diddly.
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Apple Pie
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 502
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your reply…
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
Furthermore, we can clearly see that my understanding of this ayah is the same as others…
Y.Ali Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.
R.Khalifa GOD created seven universes and the same number of earths. The commands flow among them. This is to let you know that GOD is Omnipotent, and that GOD is fully aware of all things
Where is number in the text ?
Where is the Plural of earths in the text ?
Alllaahu (Alllaah) alladhee (He who) sab'a (seven) samawaatin ( firmaments) wa (and) min (from) al-ardhi (the earth) mithlahunna (their simularity)...
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and from the Earth their simularity....65:12
It says from the Earth is their simularity. |
The operative word is similitude. Which has the SAME characteristics as another.
Do you understand what that word means?
All you have to do is look up the word….I have already posted the possible meaning at least THREE separate times for you…
Does your eyesight all the sudden go bad when you are reading my posts…?
You are still afraid to even so much as quote my replies as then this would be an OPEN acknowledgment that you actually read my posts……and your allah knows that we don’t want this to occur…..be a man…
| Quote: | | The subject is the seven firmaments with reference to that from the earth is in simularity. |
With a COMPARISON to the earth in its SIMILITUDE…..i.e. duplicate….
| Quote: | | The Earth is not the subject spoken of but that which is from the earth that is simular to the seven firmaments is referenced . |
Both heaven and earth are conjoined via “wa”…..and the similitude is between the two….
Do you not even understand your beloved Arabic…?
Just how many times can you continue to turn your head and cough….?
| Quote: | | All the deffenition you posted above are merely word for word copy from your dictionaries that does not explain how you got the prepostion "to" out of mithlahunna to be simular to them. The phrase "wa minal-ardhi mithlahunna" is in the possesive. Your translation violates the grammarical meaning in which the Quran implies. |
My definitions are straight out of the classic Arabic Lexicons. These definitions, both for “mithlahunna” combined with “wa” show that both the heaven and earth share equal characteristics. Period. There can be no denying this.
Furthermore….you are totally inept at denying the definitions for these terms….and you are even more inept at rallying ANY referenced support for your pathetic line of reasoning…
| Quote: | There is a big difference in "Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and the Earth is simular to them....65:12
Compared to:
Alllaah is He who created seven firmaments and from the Earth their simularity....65:12
What is From the earth that is their simularity or as you would say simular to them ? |
Again…..the word is similitude.
Do you understand this word…..or do you not know English as well as Arabic…?
You are beginning to sound like a little child who is ruining around with his hands over his ears and shouting…
| Quote: | Quote:
I find it quite humorous that you completely and utter ignore the unimpeachable definitions that I posited for “mithlahunna”. In keeping with the quintessential ignorant Muslim way, you don’t even entertain anything that jeopardizes your bias – and the classic definitions for “mithlahunna” coupled with “wa” totally decimates your pathetic unreferenced position.
Did we ask for individual meaning or grammar meaning ? Seems to me you have a reading problem to. Now again how does mithlahunna mean simular to them when the phrase is in the Possesive. If the phrase is in the possessive then you will have to translate it in the possessive meaning to maintain what is meant. You still haven explained where you got the preposition "to" from. |
I must admit…..you are definitely one of the thickest Muslims that I have come across…
Let’s do this….
You systematically refute the lexical definitions for the words “mithlahunna” and “wa” and then we will see who has the better understanding of the text.
Up for that….or do you want to continue to show your cowardice in front of the god that you worship…?
| Quote: | | You posted up all these meanings that are not your own. Your just making you self sound like you know what you are talking about while in fact you dont know diddly. |
When I quote, I quote the professionals in their respective areas of expertise.
Hence, you have just answered your very own accusation…..these are NOT my definitions, but the definitions of the highest quality world renowned Arabists that have absolutely authority in what they speak.
You…on the other hand….deny what they state, as you would rather pull your definitions out of your gluteus maximus region without so much as a single solitary reference to back up your biased assertions…
Understand the difference…?
I think that you do…
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H2O
Preacher
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Apple wrote: | Understand the difference…?
I think that you do… |
Not your understanding for sure. I see nothing but posting meaning no grammar.
Again. How does mathlahunna mean " simular to them" when the Arabic phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna " is in the possesive case ?
Better yet Apple what type of grammar case is the phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna " according to your understanding ?
This will be the same question over and over until you answer it. Posting definition of words doesnt answer it.
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Apple Pie
Preacher
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 502
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your reply.
I trust that you had a Great Christmas this year…
Since you feel like replying, let’s see if you can quote my responses…
| Quote: | Apple wrote:
Understand the difference…?
I think that you do…
Not your understanding for sure. I see nothing but posting meaning no grammar. |
Hold the presses……you mean that you can actually “see” my replies…?
And here we all thought that you never read our replies before banging-out a rage-induced retort…
| Quote: | Again. How does mathlahunna mean " simular to them" when the Arabic phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna " is in the possesive case ?
Better yet Apple what type of grammar case is the phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna " according to your understanding ? |
When (and if) you can garner the courage to actually post (and respond) to my replies, then You will no doubt have your answer…
| Quote: | | This will be the same question over and over until you answer it. |
Translation:
You cannot accept my reply – nor will you even acknowledge that I replied – until your Muslim fear factor has been quenched…
Just how proud is Mo right about now....?
| Quote: | | Posting definition of words doesnt answer it. |
Actually it does.
But…then again…how would you know….?
Take care…
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H2O
Preacher
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 02:36 am Post subject: |
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Apple what type of grammar case is the phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna " ?
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Apple Pie
Preacher
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 502
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 03:12 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your reply…
| Quote: | | Apple what type of grammar case is the phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna " ? |
It’s an inflection…
Now….tell us again why you deny that your Koran proclaims that there are seven earth’s.
Also…..please tell us why the Seven Earths concept was an integral part of early Islamic culture….
I’ll be waiting…
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H2O
Preacher
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 03:28 am Post subject: |
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| Apple wrote: | Apple what type of grammar case is the phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna " ?
It’s an inflection… |
Wrong ! an inflection is the nature of a word not a case which does not reflect a phrase. We asked for the grammatical case of the phrase. There is no such thing as an inflection case.
Lets try again:
Apple what type of grammar case is the phrase " minal-ardhi mathlahunna ? "
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Apple Pie
Preacher
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 502
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 03:33 am Post subject: |
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your reply…
| Quote: | | Wrong ! an inflection is the nature of a word not a case which does not reflect a phrase. We asked for the grammatical case of the phrase. There is no such thing as an inflection case. |
We would ask for a reference from you….
However….we know that Muslims are short on referencing their objections and long on assertions…
We thank you…
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