Jesus Christ Forums

[Jason Gastrich]

Dear JCF Members,

I hope you are well, today.

Do you think you've found an error in the Bible? Have you heard an argument against the Bible's inerrancy that you couldn't answer?

I've studied hundreds of alleged Bible errors and I've found answers to them all. I conclude that the Bible is a book without error. Glory to God.

If you think you've found an error, then please post it. I'd be happy to post the answer and if I don't know the answer, then I'll research it and post what I find.

May God richly bless you.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich

[newseed]

[Jason Gastrich]

[newseed]

[Unconvinced]

The resurrection.

Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John tell us about it. Some info is found in Acts as well I believe.

-What day did it happen?
-What time of day was it?
-Who went to the tomb?
-What did they see at the entrance to the tomb?
-Did anyone enter the tomb?
-Who explained the missing body of Jesus?
-Where were/was the messenger(s)?
-What did the messenger(s) say exactly?
-Did everyone believe the resurrection at first?
-To whom did Jesus reveal himself?
-What were Jesus` parting words?
-From where and when did Jesus ascend into heaven?

I`m sure it`s known that all these accounts are different, do you consider differing accounts mistakes, or proof that it really happened? Do you understand that putting these accounts into the realm of human observation to explain discrepancies keeps them in that realm, making all the accounts NON-divine?

I actually won`t really go further, there is a multitude of these games going on and it`s boring. Maybe you could make an answer to the skeptic`s annotated Bible, which has a lot of cheekiness I admit, but some good points nonetheless.
It could be the "Believer`s annotated Skeptic`s annotated bible"!


http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/index.html
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

Hi Unconvinced,

Thanks for your post.

I was hoping for a question or two. However, you posted a bunch of questions. I've already done this research, so I don't mind the question bombing. I'd like to caution you though, because some people will mind question bombing.

I've answered Dan Barker's Easter Challenge. In it, I've provided answers to most (if not all) of the questions below. You can see this here: http://jcsm.org/biblelessons/Barker17.htm

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich

[Unconvinced]

I wonder if it is in my public library, how about a free copy of your book for me?

This was the real list of questions:

[Unconvinced]

I think I even read that before, excellent.
http://jcsm.org/biblelessons/Barker17.htm

What I can`t find is his response to your answers, are they somewhere I could see? That would be interesting. I`ll bet he didn`t agree with you.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

Jason, I never worried too much about small editing errors, my beef has always been the supernaturalness, echoed in religions all over the world, fantastic stories that sound official, but don`t follow the known laws of the universe, and are oftentimes too fantastical to even consider.

Of other biblical errors there was some that bothered me, but I would have to think on it. I actually threw that first one at you not really caring about the outcome, because it`s been argued to death as you know. It`s amazing how much can be explained with enough ifs and buts thrown in.

I`ll listen to the debate, that would be interesting. I`ll pass on the book.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

Jason,

A miracle has to be something that doesn`t occur naturally, or else it is a random event. I`m not trying to humanize it, or alter it in any way. If you pray for something and it happens, it`s a miracle, but if the prayer is not answered we don`t call it a non-miracle.

Jesus`s story was obviously hyped up considerably, we don`t have anything he wrote, just what others wrote down years later, probably mostly gathered through word of mouth. This is how myths are propegated, similiar to urban legends. There is usually some facts in there somewhere, but the stories are stepped on, situations are changed to match the timeframe, names are changed, etc. All it takes is one slip up in the re-telling of the tale to alter it considerably.
Even events in a nation`s history alter through time, victories become more resounding, defeats become inevitable and blameless.
I think the bible is precious in the history it preserves, but the supernatural accounts are highly unreliable. In comparison with all religions alive or dead, yes christianity has the most paperwork surrounding it, but it`s history of being taken up by the more educated peoples and the underlying command of converting others into it, have made it quite enormous after all these years. It doesn`t, IMO make it any more sensible than other religious thought of today, or the gods and godesses of yesterday.

It all goes back to that primal need to understand why we exist, and humans have had a very, very long time to ponder this. I don`t see religion as a curious oddity, I see it as an inevitable product of early man`s struggle to understand.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Wunna Dem Marminz]

[Jason Gastrich]

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

Jason, I don`t expect you to agree of course. No personal offence intended, but you are part of what is called "organized religion", and it is an integral part of your life now, with this ministry and the books you sell. You`ve got way too much invested in it to ever look objectively at life again.

I would expect nothing more.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

If creation was a valid theory with ANY evidence to back it up Jason, I would readily accept that it be taught in our schools. There is reasons why it is not. You seem like a smart fellow, I would imagine you can see the reasons just as easily as I can.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

Appeal to flattery?
No, I just want to avoid sounding like I am berating people. See I believe we are all heading to the same place, regardless of our beliefs. that means we are all brothers. Sometimes people think I`m attacking them personally, when I only see people getting caught up in things through no real fault of there own. Why exactly do you figure we don`t teach creation in school? Or is that another subject change you didn`t want?
If you tell me it is Satan`s influence, I`m out of the discussion.

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

Well I don`t have much respect for it divinely, but sometimes I just get a wee bit lazy, I`ll try and remember it is upsetting to people.

[Unconvinced]

Oh yeah, from your link to the on-line bible, even better.
Gen. 2:7
And the LORD God formed4 man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed4 into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

Unconvinced,

You missed my point.

Whether or not scientists can create life from non-life is inconsequential because your theory relies on life coming from non-life BY ITSELF.

Sincerely,
Jason

[Unconvinced]

Oh that was your point, why didn`t you say so?

I don`t quite follow, If science had nothing to make life from then so did God, that was my point. If you say matter can`t ever be made from nothing, then aren`t you backing up an impossiblity here?
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

[Unconvinced]

Agreed, but the whole experiment in question was an attempt at reproducing what our early atmosphere would have been like. The fact that we were able to actually pull this off should carry some weight. It`s not like they have tried repeatedly and never had any success. It shows that with a few of the right ingredients we proved that a process could happen. It turns what had been denied as impossible by you folks, into something that was quite possible under conditions we had concluded existsed at the time. It`s actually quite an accomplishment.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Jason Gastrich]

With all due respect, your last post wasn't very scientific. It was a bit vague and quite assuming.

[Unconvinced]

Okay, I should hedge on that one, I acquiesce. Formation of amino acids isn`t life, but the building blocks of.
I believe this is acredited to Stanley miller`s experiment in 1953, where he made amino acids from hydrogen, water, methane, and ammonia. It has since been duplicated. We know that amino acids are essential for the building of proteins and then cell structures.

[Unconvinced]

I tried to contact Dan Barker for you regarding the Easter challenge. it sounds like you have some history, and the details weren`t sorted out. here was his reply, where he says he replied to you, but never got an answer, you two should communicate more, I`d love to see the dialogue:

[Aineo]

I know this is an old thread, however I think Unconvinced is due a rational answer to his question concerning the apparent contradictions of the resurrections accounts found in the 4 Gospels.

Jason has a tendency to declare victory in debates he has lost with other fundamental Christians. He is so indoctrinated in his own denominational theology he cannot see when and where his interpretations of certain Scriptures are incorrect.

The answer to Unconvinced question, which is also that found on most skeptic sites cannot be answered in a short paragraph or two. Therefore, I suggest this Internet site, which deals with apparent historical inaccuracies found in all historical accounts and how historians view such contradictions with an emphasis on the 4 Gospel resurrection accounts.

Good Question...
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[Unconvinced]

I am familliar with the multiple differing account idea. In short, many identical accounts would alude to a conspiracy, whereas as long as the facts are the same it should be believed, no matter how strange the differences might seem. (in a nutshell)

I`ll concede that that this could be the case in a situation of recollection years after the fact. However, I am told (or was told) that these are god`s words told through these people SO: Is it people talking or God talking? Or both?
Obviously the only rationale here is that this is people`s personal accounts that were written. (This may or may not be established, just re-iterating) Even though they apparently channeled the words of God perfectly at other times, in this case God did not bother to correct them when he had their ear, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost.
Eyewitness accounts of 2000 years dead Middle Eastern people means as much to me as the rantings of an Al-quaida follower, or any other fanatical lunatic that says he knows the "truth".
Every day that goes by on this earth makes me abhor religion and what it has done to humans even more. Religion will end up causing armageddon rather than predicting it. it`s insane.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

Unconvinced, if the accounts were identical in every detail then skeptics would cry conspiracy, since no two people see the same event in the same way. Have you considered that God allowed eye witness accounts that are in line with human frailties as a way to establish the veracity of their accounts? You see the resurrection is not about the minor details, it is about the resurrection of a person.

However, you response was not unexpected since those who are skeptical of the Bible are willing to accept biographies of men whose writings disappeared centuries before their biographers recorded details of their lives that cannot be verified.
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[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

Since God gave us the Bible to communicate with mankind, what is unreasonable about God using techniques accepted by men in courts of law? You see unconvinced you want to hold the Bible to a higher standard of communication than you do your primary source of information, which is neither inerrant nor infallible.

You appeal to being rational and then become irrational in your analysis of 4 different accounts that differ in minor details of the same event, which is what any rational person should expect from 4 individual accounts.
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[Unconvinced]

[Unconvinced]

Hey, back to the bible errors.

How come in genesis God creates light one day and creates the sun and moon two days later?

-my answer-
Because the unknowing hebrews who dreamt up genesis couldn`t even grasp that the light actually comes from the sun.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

Here is where science confirms the Bible. At the moment of the "Big Bang" the universe was filled with energy in the form of light.
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[Unconvinced]

Why does my bible say:

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. -kjv


and another says this:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, -NIV

Is God creating in "HIS" own image or the image of "US"
How does a translation screw up on what you would figure to be an easy thing like us and we?
Is there an agenda of enforcing the idea of the trinity in later translations, since the trinity was only pushed by theologans who were trying to avoid being accused of worshipping multiple Gods after Jesus claimed to be God?
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

[Unconvinced]

[Unconvinced]

[Unconvinced]

Did Jesus make a mistake here, or did Mathew? Or was God using some strange type of "technique"?
Or is it a matter of lying on purpose?

(Mathew is writing the words of Jesus)
Mathew 24:

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

-There are many instances of Jesus talking about judgement day coming soon, as in the generation of the people around him.

Mistake.

What now? You`ll tell me a generation interpreted from Hebrew does not mean what I think it means or some other strange theology right? Well there is much more:

Mathew 16
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This is Jesus talking to people standing right there in front of him. -they died thousands of years ago never having seen armaggeddon.

Mark 13
30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

John wrote in revelations:
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

He believed the end was near because Jesus told him so. John is writing to the people of his day, not me and not people in another thousand years.
There`s more but I tire.

John, Luke, Mathew, Mark ALL either making mistakes themselves or reporting the mistakes of Jesus and God, as directly relayed to them.

Funny they all got together on this point but couldn`t agree on the ressurection stories..
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are a prophesy concerning the time of the Lord's second advent, which will happen after the "fig tree leaves". The fig tree is used figuratively for the nation of Israel in Scripture. So the generation that sees Israel become a sovereign nation will not pass away before the Lord returns. Now a Biblical generation can be a long as 100 years (Genesis 4:15 with Acts 13:19). Israel became a sovereign nation in 1948 when the UN partition a portion of the British mandate for the Jews after WWII.

Peter addressed your thoughts concerning the time of the Lord's return.

[Unconvinced]

Mathew 16
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

[Unconvinced]

There is more there, without me looking I recall for one that the Jews will return to isreal before the second coming. That`s alot of Jews, and there is more trying to leave than get in, not to mention the millions of Jews who have roots in other parts of the world. that would be hard to make happen. Too bad I`ll either be very old, or dead by that time. Most likely there will merely be a new theology as to the endtimes.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Unconvinced]

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
(Matthew 21:21-22 kjv)

Do it, and prove Jesus was not lying.[/quote]
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

[Aineo]

[Unconvinced]

[Unconvinced]

Were we done with this?

[Aineo]

Have you heard of dark matter? All it takes for night is to block light.

Jesus came with power at His resurrection, and was seen by over 500 people. The church was initiated with power of the Day of Pentecost.

Those Jews who have not yet returned to Israel are those who are satisfied with their lives and are not seeking God with their whole heart. I worked for such Jews for 23 years. Most American Jews are far from Orthodox in their beliefs. The Israel that Jesus will reign over as King will extend from the Euphrates River to the River of Egypt, which is more than enough real estate to contain all the Jew's.

As to praying to cast a mountain into the sea, for what purpose? To try to convince a skeptic? If you think God will answer that type of prayer then why don't you try it, since I don't have a compelling reason to do so. I think praying for AIDS victims in Africa is a better use of prayer. Also Jesus used that as an example of the power of prayer, not as something we should pray for.

Yes, the Jews are still waiting for the Conquering Messiah who will reign with the Key of David from Jerusalem. The Messianic prophesies concerning the Conquering Messiah are yet to be fulfilled.
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[Unconvinced]

Dark matter? Cosmology? Sorry but dark matter is a name given to the theoretical matter in the universe we can`t account for. It`s a theory we need for gravitational theory to work, and other science I`m not up on. It`s missing mass, not darkness.
-that was weak, error confirmed.

[Aineo]

So you reject what sciences theorizes? That is convenient, since a lot of science is theory that lacks empirical proof such as evolution, which does not apply to dark matter since this theory is based on real time observations. What other scientific theories do you reject because they expose your prejudice?

I see you want to concentrate on belief without applying faith that does not doubt. This type of faith does not use prayer to perform parlor tricks like moving mountains since moving mountains will cause irreparable damage to others.
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[Unconvinced]

I don`t reject dark matter theory that is not what I said. Dark matter is matter we cannot detect, it`s not darkness, it`s named so because we cannot "see" it, i.e. it does not reflect light or radiate anything we can pick up with instruments. Yes it is not proven, and I never said once that theory and fact were the same.

Darkness is the absence of light, call it shadow, or an absence of solar radiation/energy if you will. Night is not an abundance of theoretical dark matter, as you seem to be trying to suggest. Science has explained how daylight works.

[Aineo]

Dark matter blocks the transmission of light thereby causing darkness or night. The fact we cannot see dark matter actually proves my point.

I guess you don't understand the phrase "irreparable damage". If somethone with a strong enough faith to cast mountains into the sea actually cast, lets say Mount Everest into the Pacific Ocean the resulting tsunami would kill millions. Therefore a person with this type of faith is not going to cast a mountain into the sea since to do so is not only counter-productive, it would violate the Lord's commandment to "love your neighbor". This was an object lesson concerning faith and praying without doubt and was not meant to be taken literally.

Now if all you are out to do is ridicule our faith instead of seeking to understand our faith I will just lock this thread. You are being given reasonable and rational explanations so you need to get off your high horse and practice what you preach concerning rational explanations.
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[webmaster]

[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

When the sun goes down? Interesting phraseology for a man who wants to appeal to science. The earth rotates, which causes the earth to block light from the sun. We can theorize that dark matter began to rotate, which blocked the light of the Big Bang. This dark matter was eventually dispersed throughout the universe. You see Unconvinced there are a plethora of explanations that cannot be discounted since no person was around to observe creation or to use scientific terms the "Big Bang.

Have all my prayers been answered? No, since not all my prayers were uttered free of doubt or were within God's will. However you keep quoting one verse out of Matthew 21 that needs to be put in context.

[Unconvinced]

Well I`m tired of the praying debate, ragardless of what you pray for, things happen how they happen. If you get lucky, well I guess you call it what you want, but it will still just be what happens.

As for the sundowns, yes I watch the sunset and the sunrise, not the spinning of the earth out of or into view of the sun.

Now listen, how are you getting hung up on the big bang being a part of this?

[Aineo]

Define "without form" and "void". You are the one who wants naturalistic explanations and in this case science can be used to affirm the Bible. As to those who handed down the Bible not knowing of the universe this denies historical truth. Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible and was educated in Pharoah's court. Ancient Eqyptians were excellent astronomers in view of their lack of technology as we understand astronomy.
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[Unconvinced]

It means (they imagined) the earth was once featureless, and empty. It takes huge stretches to relate earth`s formation scientifically to genesis accounts. But that doesn`t stop people from inserting their own ideas.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

The earth was once empty and featureless according to science and like the Bible there are great men of science who disagree on science. For instance special relativity and quantum mechanics are both valid but cannot be reconciled. So, which theory is correct and/or how can the two be reconciled?

As to Genesis 1, there are Christians who view this chapter as allegorical and those who view this chapter as literal truth. Can Genesis 1 be fully reconciled with science? No. Can I give you a rational explanation for God creating vegetation on day 2 before He created the sun on day 3? No.
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[Unconvinced]

Yes, there is no unified theory, only separate observations.

As for Genesis, don`t forget the possibility that these ancient people, smart though they were, were just writing down legends passed orally for ages. One day they decided to put it to paper, and this is what we have. if not for a few mistakes, it could shadow science. I.E. they did not realize that the sun was the source of light, they thought the sun came with the light, just like the moon came with the night.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

[Unconvinced]

Wow Aneo, there is some leeway under that gruff exterior. But The sun being created in Gen. actually works when you realize that god already made light, see, as I said, it looks as if they didn`t know where the light was actually coming from.

I`ve always thought this verse grew from confusion over where rain comes from.

[Superman]

Yeah I seem to agree that the bible has its set of contradictions and errors just as the Koran. That's my 2 cents worth!

Sincerely,
Superman

[Aineo]

Not all rivers and streams are the result of rainfall. Lets jump forward to the the flood account and see if we can discern the origin of the rivers in Eden.

[Unconvinced]

4 rivers all coming from springs? You ever seeen a spring? Ever seen a river coming from a spring? Well with th exception of a subterranian river that emerge somewhere, springs normally produce a small amount of water, a creek or stream, if you will. The odds of 4 spring fed rivers feeding Eden is a huge long shot. Besides haven`t they speculated where eden should have been through bible examination? Is there four rivers somewhere in the middle east that are fed by spring?

[Aineo]

Okay, so spring was a poor choice of words and yes I have seen some natural springs that result in more than a "stream". Now have you ever spent time in a greenhouse that lacks widows that open? I have when I lived in Texas where commercial nurseries are constructed from vinyl sheeting. The purpose of constructing such greenhouses was to kill all the vegetation in the greenhouse before ventilation fans and openings were inserted. The condensation that forms falls like rain. Also the four rivers had a common source so we are not talking about 4 sources.

The four rivers are identified with the modern day Tigres, Euphrates, Karun, and the Kerkha Rivers. Now what you do with this information is up to you, but for those who accept the Bible this demonstrates not only the size of the Garden of Eden but its location being in what is today Iraq, Iran, and maybe Ethiopia.

Now, as to the long periods of time that people lived prior to the flood and for centuries after the flood, I suppose we could get into an in depth study of the decay in light speed and how our perception of time is tied to the speed of light and /or the lack of viruses and other diseases common to man that have surfaced over the millenia but I am not sure that is going to change your mind.
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[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

From the time of Aristotle until the 17th century scientists thought light speed was infinite. In the 1670's Ole Roemer calculated the speed of light to be about 186,000 miles per second, but it was not until the mid 1800's that scientist developed more sophisticated methods of measuring the speed of light. Since that time the measured speed of light has been demonstrated to be slowing. "C" or light speed was defined as a constant in 1941 is spite of the overwhelming evidence "c" is not and never has been constant. Dr. Joao Magueijo, a physicist at Imperial College in London, Dr. John Barrow of Cambridge, Dr. Andy Albrecht of the University of California at Davis and Dr. John Moffat of the University of Toronto have all published work advocating their belief that light speed was much higher – as much as 10 to the 10th power faster – in the early stages of the "Big Bang" than it is today.

So you see unconvinced when you appeal to scientific disciplines that used "c" as a constant in order to determine the ages of fossiles you are appealing to a defined not an observed and measured variable to determine fossil ages.

As to your comments concerning modern day locations of the 4 rivers, the fact we know that the surface geology of the earth has changed over time your rejection is based on your prejudices not on what you can prove, even by using science.
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[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

Planck's Constant.
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[Unconvinced]

So you disagree with Planck? I see how you`re trying to tie this together with photons being light/radiation, I think. I`m just not sure where you`re headed.

as for these two dating methods:

Please remember (you may have known) carbon 14 dating (for fossils/living things) Is only accurate to 70,000 years, assuming the amount of light striking the earth`s atmosphere has remained the same. from scientific study of the sun, 70,000 years is a conservative estimate of reliability for this dating method.

Radiometric dating, for elemental matter (rocks) is based on radioactive decay, which should not be affected by photons. Rocks are dated to the time they were formed (when they cooled from molten).
You can`t use this method to date biological remains unless they have been encased in sediments, along with minerals such as potassium. (The sediment would date to the time of it`s formation, which would be long before it broke down into sand/dust. minerals would give us a more accurate date)

yes dating is rough, but the older it is the less the variation matters to the estimated age.

Don`t forget, these are but two dating methods I highlighted, suppose we had 5 different dating methods indicating a discovered human bone was at least 50,000 years old?
You would believe a book containing tales of impossible feats written 2000 years ago by some middle eastern storytellers, yet this is too much of a stretch? I Truly don`t understand this enigma.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

No, I do not disagree with Planck's constant, I agree with observed scientific data, which contradict accepted current theories. You asked a question I gave you an answer concerning light speed, which is used in all calculations for dating fossils.

I believe what is found in a Book that contains prophesies that are being fulfilled in our time. Read Psalms 83 and Ezekiel 38 and then check them against the current political alliances in the Middle East. Skeptics will never accept miracles, however all skeptics have problems with fulfilled prophecy.
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[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

With all due respect unconvinced, I find your response disingenuous. Here is a link to the formula for radiometric dating:
http://www.science.smith.edu/departments/Geology/Petrology/Notes/Equations_05.pdf

The formula used to determine "n" or the unit of time incorporates "c" or lightspeed. Also it is easy to dismiss observed data that contradicts accepted theory as the work of "religiously biased psuedo-scientists". I could (but will not) dismiss secular science as "atheist biased psueo-scientists" who have defined constants to fit their theories by ignoring scientific measurements that show the some defined constants are in fact variables.

As to your offhand dismissal of Bible prophesies that are being fulfilled in the Middle East, could you post a link to prophesies from other religions that fit the current Middle East conflict? Then explain how a nation of 6+ million has been able to defeat the Arab armies that outnumber them by a factor of 3000?
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[Unconvinced]

Well, you got me baffled, I know time is affected when moving at the speed of light, or moves slower the closer you get to the speed of light. But I don`t know how this affects radiometric dating of a static piece of rock. Or specifically one moving in orbit while spinning around itself, such as everything is upon the earth. Everything we test is in the same time and space. I don`t even see the arguement in the paper you posted, sorry.
You really think scientists just threw radiometric dating out there without extensive testing and referencing? That some creationist could point out this angle you are taking and science would be thrown upon it`s head?
The problem with researching absolutely every arguement for and against is we could probably read books 24hrs a day and never learn everything in science that has gotten us to this point. We aren`t being very productive here, radiometric dating works, other methods prove it does, there should be no arguement.

[Aineo]

Many scientific discoveries have set science on it's head. What is interesting about your dismissal is that cosmologists and physicists are taking the decay in light speed seriously based on observed data. Radiometric dating and how we perceive time are not incompatable since we view time as a constant and the dates determined by radiometric dating are based on defined constants, not tested constants.

Books have been written refuting the accuracy of Nastrodamus' predictions. I have read both sides. You could have picked Edger Casey since he is viewed as equal or better than Nastrodamus. Also, horoscopes are so vague as to be a poor comparison to Biblical prophesies. My horoscope says I will have extra time to spend with my mate today. I don't have a mate. It also tells me to not to overdo it today cleaning up after the party, which is ludicrous since I stayed home last night.
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[Unconvinced]

Aineo, I just don`t see time decay as a factor within our argued timeframe. It depends how far back we go. If we want to, for example, date the grand Canyon, we have already ruined the credibilitry of biblical time within this very small timeframe. If you are saying time has been seriously altered within the period we find the fossil record, I don`t see it, and I don`t see the science to prove it, or at least make it into a theory. You`re just confusing the issue with this clutter. I didn`t hear anyone attacking science when the dead sea scrolls were dated. Why, because your camp liked that data.

Prophecies:
The Bible is jam-packed with people making statements about what will happen, what God will do, what the future holds. Problem is for everyone that appears prophetic, there is more that don`t make sense, and more that did not come to pass or cannot come to pass. I could dig up prophecy arguements from various websites and books and we could go on and on but there is no point. Prophecy is too hit and miss, it can be an educated guess at what will happen, or too vague to make sense at all until hindsight can spot it. DaVinci drew pictures of flying machines, and had all sorts of insights into the future. He wasn`t a prophet though was he? Same with Nostradamus, it`s all the same to me. I`m not molding my life after a fairy tale because some prophecies are eerily spot on.
I`m told fullfilled prophecies help to solidify your faith, there is really not much else to go on since nothing that would prove the validity of supernatural happennings, (i.e. Godly works and miracles) has ever been found.
It`s a pretty threadbare ideology to spend your life devoted too. I mean look at the insanity of the middle eastern people responsible for your Biblical writings. We can look at them and say it`s religion gone too far or we can compare someone wrapped in explosives in the middle of a crowded market to some Christian who refuses to lift his nose from his Bible and look around for a few minutes.
Does God say to do stuff like that? yes, no, maybe at one time but not now? depends where you live and who your parents are. Allah Akubar?
Who cares when all mankind really needs is a single, universal moral code to live by.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

How about "love your neighbor as yourself" as the single moral code to live by?

If the Suni's and the Shiites would adopt this 5 word moral code then the sectarian violence in Iraq would cease, the rich would care for the poor in the same manner they cared for themselves, racism would cease, as would all other forms of segregation and sectarianism.

One of the major tenets of the New Testament is that we are to "love your neighbor as yourself". However, self interest, greed, hate, the pursuit of material possessions, and sexual gratification free of moral responsibility will always elevate self above others.

As to your comments concerning time, the Grand Canyon, and dinosaurs; these can be logically explained if and when you accept scientific data as the basis for what you believe in lieu of theories that do not have any empirical evidence to support them. You have a problem with religion and faith in religious beliefs but do not have a problem with putting your faith in scientific theories and dating methods that depend on defined constants that have been shown to be variables. If science has taught us anything it is that scientific knowledge is in a constant state of flux. What is thought as being true today will tomorrow be viewed as archaic.
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[Unconvinced]

The Golden rule is fine, probably better to be worded "do unto others as you`ve had done unto you" because it`s hard to love complete strangers anyway. I don`t know how to enforce it worldwide unless all religion is found to be false, until everyone realizes how silly we`ve been and has a good laugh like we would chuckle at ancient Greek legends about Zeus or native Indian beliefs as well.
All religion starts out the same, but as time progresses, they have gotten more refined and modern.

Look at the modern religion of Christianity. It intentionally puts a monkey wrench into the possibility of thinking freely. It tells you that there will be people like me. It tells you that people will revolt against God.
Unfortunately by default it makes people absolutely closed-minded to even legitimate indisputable scientific fact because the prophecy is being fulfilled. The proof is in these pages right?

[Aineo]

The "Golden Rule" is a paraphrase of this:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. KJV

If all religion is found to be false then this world would devolve into total chaos faster than it is today.

Define "thinking freely", since belief in the literal meaning of Genesis is not a requirement for being a true Christian. Some of the foremost scientists of the past and present were and are "free thinking" individuals who were/are Bible believing Christians. What you are referring to is institutionalized religion that is based on dogma that has little to do with the Bible or what the Bible teaches. One of the reasons many people reject Christianity is because they know a Christian who practices dogma.

Setting religion aside for a moment, how many prisons do you have in Canada? As much as you may not like to admit it, human beings are basically self-centered, prideful, selfish, and will rebel against any authority that stands in the way of what they want.

As to your challenge concerning the Grand Canyon, have you checked out this site:
www.setterfield.com

I have a question for you. Do you limit science to the physical and biological sciences? What is your view of anthropology, sociology, and archeology?
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[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

What constrains you is the culture you were born into, a culture that received its moral code from Christianity. The Pax Romana, the Code of Hammurabi, and all other moral codes can be traced to some religious belief. Even atheist countries like China have adopted the basic moral values of religion.

Also the Bible does not reach that rejecting God or any supreme being is a sin. It teaches that those who reject the one true God will not spend eternity with Him.

Try www.setterfield.org
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[Unconvinced]

[Aineo]

The code that says "you shall not commit murder" later tells the family of the person murdered they have the right to take the life of the murderer. It also makes an exemption for accidental homicide and established cities of refuge where the one who killed is safe from retribution.

However, even the most primitive cultures have some religious belief that guides them. Atheism is the product of a naturalistic/materialistic world.
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[Unconvinced]

If you look hard enough (and I sure had to look hard for this one) can`t you find suggestions within the Bible of instinctual knowledge of what is right and wrong?
as in:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I recall passages relating to explanations of the Holy Ghost as suggesting divine knowledge is emitted from It/God.
But this theology would conflict with your opinion that we got our moral code from the Bible because it suggests instinctual knowledge of right and wrong.
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Aineo]

No, but you can find these:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
NKJV


Romans 2:14-16
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

The 1 John Scripture you quoted would remind his audience of Jeremiah 31.
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[Unconvinced]

Ahhh...
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Killing for peace is like sex for chastity, Uncle Sam.

Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

~ATHEISM PROMOTES HONESTY~

[Iblis]

[Iblis]

Who tempted David to number Israel?

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

When David committed this sin god gave him three possible punishments to choose from:

2 Samuel 24:13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

1 Chronicles 21:12 Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me

[Iblis]

Matthew 27:9-10 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

However, this is not a prophecy of Jeremiah, but of Zechariah. Matthew compounds the error by misquoting it.

11:12-13 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

[Iblis]

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

But this is a misquote of:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Even worse is the fact that Jesus was born over 700 years too late to fulfill this prophecy in Isaiah 7. When read in context the birth of the child to the young woman (virgin is a mistranslation by the editors of the KJV and also an error on Matthew's part) was to be a sign to King Ahaz that god would destroy Syria and Israel (who had been planning an attack on Judah). God agreed to protect Judah but what actually happened?

2 Chronicles 28:5 Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him[Ahaz] into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter.

[Aineo]

Instead of reinventing the wheel for Iblis and others who would rather pull misinformation from the Atheists Bible and waste others time, here is a link to a site that answers your so called contradictions and misinformation you think is found in the Bible:

http://www.tektonics.org/

The Apologetics Encyclopedia section of this site addresses all your so-called contradictions by book.

This thread is closed.
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